in praise of a (more) vegetarian lifestyle

[Susie]

Oh, Cheezly is beyond euphemism ;-).

(I feel mean now. Someone probably loves it!).

[The Riff-Raff Element]

Is that proven?? Doesn't Japan also have a really high suicide rate?..having eaten soya,that seems pretty rational to me!

Ya daft booger

In long-distant student veggie days (I only did it in a cynical attempt to appear more "sensitive" to girls ) I ate a lot of soya concoctions and they were pretty uniformly vile. However, I have never attempted to make baked beans with them. I'll have to have a go.

[contadina]

Black-eyed beans are better, I find haricot, cannellini and soya beans all a bit too hard for baked beans (no matter how I cook them).

[123sologne]

But didn't the Japanese ate too much fish, therefore making a big dent in fish stock?...
I think it would be nice to go backwards in a way. In the past, people ate less meat, more vegs, and everything was in season and grown locally. But that does mean no bananas, no oranges, no soya... I don't think it will happen though as we move forward not backward and there are now things that even the people on this forum are used to, that we would not want to not have anymore. I always think that as far as meat is concerned, it should only be grown slowly on only what the land where it is grown has to offer. People in the old days had different breeds depending on the land which still exist for some part, like Highland cattle and Dartmoor sheep (well Dartmoor sheep are kind of coming back)and obviously these animals would not compete with us for feed as where they graze we cannot grow anything. Okay, they would be some mileage to move them within the UK, but no more New Zealand lamb, or Brazilian beef.... And I am afraid to have to say: No wastage in meat either, we would have to eat the lot, from head to toe, without missing the central parts; offal and all!
But yeah, less meat and more fruits and vegs. If everybody became vegetarian, I think it would actually put a strain on the arable land at one point, especially in the very populated countries and the land that is not arable would not be used for anything other than for walking and admiring, which is very nice but, you can still do that while the cows and sheep are grazing on it...
As for costs and the reality of today, with the current economics, we are not winning this battle as price of fruits and vegs are rising therefore not being very attractive to the poorer of society who have no garden and no possibility of getting one (especially in the big cities) and who are therefore eating more junk food/meat...

[oldjerry]

Oh, Cheezly is beyond euphemism ;-).

(I feel mean now. Someone probably loves it!).

I've googled it,it sounds VILE. Why does so much veggie/vegan stuff impersonate meat?,cheese,even bacon rashers.
I once had a month or so eating veggie sausages(for reasons remarkably similar to RRE's),Ithink they were called Grey nose or something(grim nausea more like),anyhow that insight into my feminine side was lost in the resulting fog of flatulence.

[contadina]

Not all vegetarian/vegans eat sh*te like that. All those meat substitute products are just as bad any other processed foods.

[oldjerry]

Yeah,I realise that,(in truth I'm no raving carnivore,I'd rather pasta e fagioli than any thing else).Perhaps the processed veggie stuff is a last ditch attempt by the food industry to counter a trend that really threatens their profits.

[red]

although we rear our own meat - we try to not eat too much of it - we eat 'vegetarian' a few times a week - often egg or cheese based, sometimes meat and dairy free. ( i make a great veggie curry).

milk and dairy products are probably the worst from an environmental pov - cows are fed imported feeds, and calves removed and often just killed and not eaten. (if we are to have the milk, the calf has to be taken away).
cows are put to the bull or AI at least once a year so thats a lot of calves.

meanwhile i source my beef from cows that are only fed grass or hay made on the same farm.
our sheep live on grass most of the year (supplement with British beet or hay if it snows of if they have just lambed), so environmentally, both the beef and lamb/mutton we eat is very environmentally friendly.

i do often wonder if eating less meat and initiatives such as meat free monday, actually result in more imported 'pretend meat' foods, and more dairy foods being eaten, which, at the end of the day can be a less environmentally friendly choice.


i feel we should all be eating less meat, not making up for it with dairy or pretend meat, and sourcing our foods locally.

i wonder how easy it is to live on a diet sourced only from, say, the country you live in, particularly if you cut out meat. i know for me.. potatoes would appear a lot more on the menu...and we would have to wave goodbye to a lot of favourite pulses and rice etc..

[greenorelse]

i wonder how easy it is to live on a diet sourced only from, say, the country you live in, particularly if you cut out meat. i know for me.. potatoes would appear a lot more on the menu...and we would have to wave goodbye to a lot of favourite pulses and rice etc..

I think regionally is the way to go - European-sourced food. That way, you'd get all your nutrients. In the past, people who ate too locally suffered from deficiencies of one sort or another (Scroogle Derbyshire neck, for instance).

Yes, some food would still travel large distances but we why not rely on trains and boats, not planes?

Black-eyed beans are better, I find haricot, cannellini and soya beans all a bit too hard for baked beans (no matter how I cook them).

Yes, black-eyed beans, we like those too. I love 'em all! I quite like beans with 'bite'. We use a pressure cooker for them - once soaked, virtually any bean cooked longer than four minutes in one would be mush.

Why does so much veggie/vegan stuff impersonate meat?

Yes, this annoys me. Burgers and sausages are ok as they don't impersonate a part of an animal and are simply a convenient way to deliver ingredients. But rashers and 'cheating' chicken, grrr.

[Flo]

Why does so much veggie/vegan stuff impersonate meat?

Because so many people have no flaming idea how to cater for vegans so it makes life easy. And because it's a transition stage for some who haven't yet learned how to do the interesting stuff in vegan life.

Can I interest anyone in shepherd's pie vegan style - same recipe as normal but with lentils of choice and vegan stock. Tastes good even to none vegans. Would you like some chocolate cake? Are you interested in Christmas pudding and Christmas cake? My daughter can make you a terrific haggis vegan style (only because she has my recipe book) that will convince you that there is more to life than roast and two veg.

As to why vegan? Why not? It may be good for the planet and it may be because you don't feel like eating other sentient beings. Methinks that vegans are often seen as an indirect moral challenge rather than an environmental challenge to the norm.

[Susie]

Methinks that vegans are often seen as an indirect moral challenge rather than an environmental challenge to the norm.

This is true and I have had a realisation. When I was veggie (ages) & then vegan (albeit for 5 mins), people (mostly my other half but not just him) moaned all the time about eating veggie/ vegan food, poked it with forks, what is in this, etc etc etc. Now I am eating meat again, but... we don't really eat different food. It is the same food for 95% of our meals. Tonight's dinner is vegan. 3 meals we have planned for next week are vegan and all apart from perhaps 1 will be vegetarian because frankly I am no good at cooking meat although I am good at veggie stuff. But now I am no longer actually calling it veggie food, everyone loves it. I would find this depressing if I thought about it so I'll go and cook dinner instead .

[oldjerry]

I think regionally is the way to go - European-sourced food. That way, you'd get all your nutrients. In the past, people who ate too locally suffered from deficiencies of one sort or another (Scroogle Derbyshire neck, for instance).

Yes, some food would still travel large distances but we why not rely on trains and boats, not planes?

Do you seriously mean that? 'people who eat locally suffer from some deficiency or another'?By picking and choosing different foods from around the globe,a few priveleged people might extend their lifespan,but thats predicated on the existence of a system of global capitalism(for the distribution system,and the ability(and desire) of the priveleged few to aquire the stuff).For me,the most important consideration for a sustainable future IS eating food thats locally sourced,and if I lose a couple of years off the end of my life,or whatever,it's worth it,so that my kids grandkids can have a life.

[grahamhobbs]

I think we are discussing 3 distinct, albeit very related issues. the moral question as to whether humans should eat meat or animal products, saving the plant by having a sustainable agriculture and eating healthly.
Vegetarianism and veganism may well offer solutions to the question of planetary and human health, but that is not their starting points, which is a moral question. Thou shall not kill, but off we go to war, would we not kill to save our children from a killer. The problem with morals are that they can be a dogma that denies the richness and complexities of life.
Rather than a dogma we should be looking for solutions for specific circumstances to the problems in the world, starvation in places, waste and obesity in others, global warming and increasing population.
Although I can see that a more vegetarian diet would be beneficial for most people (and the planet) it is not applicable everywhere, the colder the climate the less applicable or sustainable it becomes.
We need to look at sustainable agricultures appropriate for each area. Compared with say traditional Chinese agriculture ours is very inefficient, in terms of outputs per acre and minimum reliance on fossil fuels.
As for human health, it is clear that we are in general eating far more meat than ever before, and we and the planet is suffering because of it, however the scientific evidence is clear that as a species we have developed through and are adapted to eat meat. The question is how much do we need to eat, I do not think there is a single answer, ok it is almost certainly a lot less than most people do in this country, but it is a balance, a balance dependent on the climate you live in and the other things you are eating. In eastern philosophy, good health is achieved by a holistic view of the body in relation to the environment and maintaining a dialectic balance between yin and yang. Achieving a balance is easier if you do not eat at the extremes (meat on one side and dairy products, alcohol and sugar on the other) but by eating at the fulcrum of the balance, grains and vegetables.

[Berti]

WOW, Graham!! Really well said and right you are!! Nothing to add to that!

[grubbysoles]

Another very, very interesting thread, and so many good points. I completely agree that communities need to farm whatever is necessary for their survival. As for me, I live in Kent in 2011 - I do not need meat or dairy, so I don't bother with them.

With regards to soy - I'm not a qualified nutritionist but from what I have learnt in the 16 months I have been vegan (albeit with the occasional fail and giving in to the temptation of cheese....), the jury is still out on soy. It's a 'complete' protein, which is wonderful, you can make milk and yogurt with it, great, but processed soy is proving in studies to be not the wonder-food it was originally thought of as. Fermented soy, on the other hand, is where it's at. Can't remember all the science of why, but apparently the fermented stuff - seitan, miso, natto (some Japanese stuff which apparently tastes disgusting) - those are the things that will do you good. I only buy tofu about once a month, for when I'm feeling too lazy to cook proper vegan food, other than that I stay away from cheat meats and fake cheeses. As has already been said, highly processed vegetarian food is really not going be any better for you than highly processed meat foods. I'll occasionally buy fake sausages or fake burgers as a treat, just as I would only occasionally buy sausages or burgers as a treat when I was a meat eater. I'll only buy soy that has not been genetically modified or grown in rainforests. But yes, 'cheat' meats are a transitional food and great for beginner veggies or people who are under doctor's orders to cut out saturated animal fats and cholesterol from their diets.

My diet relies heavily on grains, beans, pulses, fruit, veg & nuts and I have learnt a whole new way to cook in the last year and a bit. In fact, my diet is now infinitely more varied than it was as a meat-eater, when it was just meat, carb, veg every night. And no, I don't spend my whole life passing wind, which many people ask me! I also have infinitely more energy, don't catch as many colds, and have become strangely bendy and flexible (I have no idea how this has happened!)

I think, meat eater or not, people should just put more effort into sourcing their food as kindly as possible - the meaties need to try to get local and organic wherever possible (and maybe just eat less of it if the cost is prohibitive) and veggies need to think carefully about the process their foods have gone through, rather than just grab Cheezly and a fake burger off the shelf. Actually, I quite like Cheezly! Again, it's an ocassional 'treat'. No, really, I like it!