Horrified!

[Annpan]

Just listening to the radio, Jeremy Vine was talking about how Percentiles are divisive (not his words... mine)and are anti-breast-feeding.....here here, bullying woman into giving formula to bulk up their babies.

They had a doctor on who said he was aware of babies being weaned at 12 weeks... on left over chinese carry out, pureed, from the night before.



I despair

[ina]

I've seen more than one parent with a baby in the pram, feeding it on crisps and coke...

[QuakerBear]

I've seen cola in bottles.

I know I'm not a parent yet and, yes, I don't know the preasure parents are under, but still???????????

[Clara]

Percentiles make me wanna spit! It seems that very few people understand that they are the range of healthy weights, therefore half of all perfectly healthy children are going to be below the 50th percentile.....they have to be otherwise it wouldn´t be the 50th percentile KWIM?

my dd for example was 3kg at birth, which I thought was a little light but according to spanish percentiles this is right on the 50th, at 3 months she was on the 90th, 6.5 months the 25th.....that was the last time I had her weighed, cause it´s just nonsense. But more than that its a very masculine medical kind of nonsense which likes to quantify things rather than leave it on a mothers common sense. I think mothers who feed their babies junk are just another victim of the system which tells you to surrender it all to the professionals and don´t educate yourself (or - radical thought - get taught about it in school).

DD right now, shes all skinny legs and huge belly, a (normally) healthy appetite and bright eyes. I have no idea what she weighs, but clearly she is healthy.

I guess this really touches a nerve with me because despite ticking all the "intending to breastfeed" boxes when I was given forms during my pregnancy, and then starting successfully despite awful treatment in hospital - when I left hospital the doctor wrote on my advice sheet "feeding: BF and/or FF" (in fact he even named the brand!), but "AND/OR", like "don´t you even think of not giving her formula"

Moving away from the soapbox now!

[Eigon]

When my sister had her baby, they had a chart at the hospital for all the other babies, and a little chart just for James underneath, as he was very small for his age. My sister was told not to worry too much as long as he looked happy, though she was given some formula stuff to give him to get him to gain weight.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

Three daughters...one on the 5% line (by the skin of her teeth!), one somewhere above 90% and the youngest right down the middle.

Personally I think the system of percentiles rather pointless at best and a positive menace at worst. People actually compete over them.

Our elder two were fed breast until weaning, but the youngest only got ten weeks - medical problem afflicting DW intervened. But the pressure to use formula is strong here. Had we been first time parents we would probably have caved in, but as it was (and even with little Fliss being "gavaged" twice a day on formula for the first few days because at 35 weeks she fell into the premature catagory) we just went our own way.

But the early weaning was an eye-opener, particularly my discovery of the the French Grandmother approach to getting baby to sleep through the night: half fill the bottle with puréed vegetables, then top off with formula. Nice full tummy = baby sleeps through night. I thought the bottle looked a funny colour, and heaven knows what the medical wisdom is on the matter.

Solids seem to be offered far earlier here than in the UK, and children don't seem to be any the worse for it. The grandmothers tell me that early education of the palate is key to healthy eating in childhood...

[citizentwiglet]

The current centile charts they use in the UK were created back in 1969 when formula-feeding was the predominant choice for most mums - it was the 'done thing' to have a big, chubby moon-faced baby. They have since realised that a gradual weight gain in line with height as you typically see with breastfed babies is far healthier, yet they continue to place a ridiculous amount of importance in these outdated charts.

Here in Scotland I had the breastfeeding message rammed down my throat constantly - consultants/midwives/HVs etc are not allowed by law to recommend formula as an alternative the breastfeeding. Sadly, however, I had various problems - my son was tiny and weak and unable to latch on properly, or latched on and promptly fell asleep, then thrush and mastitis, then some really rather unpleasant abcesses. I found the whole thing so stressful my milk didn't come in properly for 6 weeks, by which time we'd been rushed into hospital. I found the general attitude of the health professionals rather insulting - that I 'wasn't trying', 'I was a quitter who couldn't be bothered to breastfeed' etc. I had received NO practical help from the midwives and HVs (who had to admit they had all bottle-fed theirs), the local BF Network were happy to gab on the phone but not so keen to come out and actually help me...so regrettably I was in so much pain and so worried about Ellis starving I swapped to formula.

Yes, I believe that breastfeeding is best for mum and for baby and yes, I would try again if I have another baby. But there is a problem here - too many yelling the message, but not enough people available to give one-on-one practical support and advice. Breastfeeding shouldn't be a stressful, unhappy experience but, sadly, all too often mums are just dumped to cope alone at a very overwhelming time.

As for weaning....a lot of people still seem to consider it a race. I did wait 6 months, but that suited Ellis. I know a lot of babies are hungrier earlier. A lot of people who wean early seem to think that they need to so baby eats lumpy food at the 'right' age. Cobblers! Ellis was on puree for about a fortnight, straight onto lumps after that and has eaten practically anything and everything we've given him since he was around a year old. He has about 7 portions of fruit and veg a day, my only concession to 'junk' is a teeny-tiny bit of chocolate every blue moon. But yes, you see loads of babies here drinking cola and eating Wotsits.....

Blimey, that was a rant wasn't it?

[mrsflibble]

Yes, I believe that breastfeeding is best for mum and for baby and yes, I would try again if I have another baby. But there is a problem here - too many yelling the message, but not enough people available to give one-on-one practical support and advice. Breastfeeding shouldn't be a stressful, unhappy experience but, sadly, all too often mums are just dumped to cope alone at a very overwhelming time.

I've seen babies with cola in their bottles, I wonder what it's doing to their teeth not to mention what the caffeine's doing to them!

I remember being at the till in our local boots once and th lady in front of me was asking whether the baby change room has a bottle warmer. the staff memeber said no, but I piped up and said "yes it does, it's at the back of the room." the lady left, heading for the change room- the staff member then said they're not allowed to mention that they have a bottle warmer as it's against company policy!!!!!

I would try and bf if I had another child; but that;'s a moot point seeing as me nearly dying in childbirth freaked us both out so much that james had a vasectomy when soph was 8 month old....

[QuakerBear]

Unfortunately the babies and toddlers with cola in their bottles and other nasties not only get rotton baby teeth but their adult teeth also rot before they've even errupted from the gums. It's very sad really.

[Annpan]

Here in Scotland I had the breastfeeding message rammed down my throat constantly - consultants/midwives/HVs etc are not allowed by law to recommend formula as an alternative the breastfeeding. Sadly, however, I had various problems - my son was tiny and weak and unable to latch on properly, or latched on and promptly fell asleep, then thrush and mastitis, then some really rather unpleasant abcesses. I found the whole thing so stressful my milk didn't come in properly for 6 weeks, by which time we'd been rushed into hospital. I found the general attitude of the health professionals rather insulting - that I 'wasn't trying', 'I was a quitter who couldn't be bothered to breastfeed' etc. I had received NO practical help from the midwives and HVs (who had to admit they had all bottle-fed theirs), the local BF Network were happy to gab on the phone but not so keen to come out and actually help me...so regrettably I was in so much pain and so worried about Ellis starving I swapped to formula.

Yes, I believe that breastfeeding is best for mum and for baby and yes, I would try again if I have another baby. But there is a problem here - too many yelling the message, but not enough people available to give one-on-one practical support and advice. Breastfeeding shouldn't be a stressful, unhappy experience but, sadly, all too often mums are just dumped to cope alone at a very overwhelming time.

I am of very much the same persuassion as you... The only difference with me was that, they kept telling me not to stop trying.

E never latched on... we weren't given any one to one help until she was 20 hours old, by which time I had only got her to 'latch on' for 4 minutes... for the next week in hospital I had 12 midwifes 'help'. E's head in one hand, my boob in the other... shove the 2 together... as you can imagine it didn't work. I was eventually expressing every feed for her and I was a nervous wreck as they said things like 'she's starving', 'you have flat nipples', 'she has too much attitude' - really not very constructive but I wouldn't give up as I believed that formula was evil and it was a sign that you weren't trying hard enough.

When I eventually went home the BF councilers MWs and HV spent 2 weeks using the technique of pushing E's head into my boob... and they kept telling me not to give up... even when I had Mastitis they told me not to give up, and when I had anafalactic reaction to the Penecillin, they told me not to give up, and when they had to give me anti-lactating anti-hystamines, they told me not to give up... By which point I spent 30min every 2 hours expressing (night and day) and could only produce 1 ounce of milk every 2 hours and E still wasn't 'latching on' and John had to go back to work, and I had no other support... Exactly how they expected me to carry on I'll never know... I felt like a failure for so long and the whole thing means that I will never listen to another MW or HV when it comes to advice.

I read everything I can and try to make an educated decision, at the end of the day you know if your child is thriving or not, you don't need a blumin chart to tell you... and I am very pro-breastfeeding, and I will try again (should I ever be daft enough to have another baby )

Oh dear... look you've got me started ranting now.

Who's next on this soap box?

[citizentwiglet]

[By which point I spent 30min every 2 hours expressing (night and day) and could only produce 1 ounce of milk every 2 hours and E still wasn't 'latching on' and John had to go back to work, and I had no other support... Exactly how they expected me to carry on I'll never know... I felt like a failure for so long and the whole thing means that I will never listen to another MW or HV when it comes to advice. [/quote]

Snap! But you're told by everyone that it is sooooo easy....I was told by a childless 19 year old student midwife that it was the most simple thing in the world. The midwife we all lovingly called Hitler didn't let me sleep for more than 20 mins a night, I was 'trying' to feed or expressing the rest of the time. When Ellis did eventally latch on, she just said 'I bet you're not doing it right'. She also wrote some pretty nasty stuff on my medical notes. I did complain to NHS Lanarkshire, but I've yet to hear anything. And I wonder why I got PND....my CPN actually thinks it was bordering on the PTSD.

[Annpan]

Hugs all round(((((((())))))))

[circlecross]

sorry you've had sh*tty experiences bfing. With ds1 I bf'd no prob and as in London I was able to donate milk to the milk bank as I had surplus (and surplus time to express KWIM???) With ds2 he was a lousy feeder, just a slurp then off, and I was bursting with milk, no time to express (with a toddler to look after aswell), and I got mastitis. I got through it, he wouldn't take a bottle, then I got mastitis again at 11 months and the ungrateful swine decided he would self wean as the milk tasted a little funny (antibiotics).
Bugger.
Anyway, ds1 was given a bf centile chart which put the weight at slightly below formula, but it is realistic for a bf baby - genius! Ds2 I have no idea what his weight is was or shall be because he's a second child and he is eating a nd alive!!!
The midwives here are fab, and totally pro-bf, and even tho I had to have a csection, ds2 was dangled over the boob and squashed on to make sure he got a slurp while I was still reeling and the surgeon tying the knot! Ds1 I had to work it out myself as I find the nursing staff in London tend to take a rather laissez-faire attitiude to attention.
I have found that some hv are nightmares, and some are angels, but I think you only trust your own judgement when you have a second child. ds2 was tasting solids at about 5 months, and he is a grazer on carpet fluff, ds1's bum scratched fingers, day old half eaten apples found from under the sofa. Ds1 wouldn't have a thing unless it was washed, organic and rolled on a maiden's thigh!

I look after children as my job and the demographic I tend to work in are the coke and wotsits brigade. It is amazing as I think that I give ds2 junk, but my junk tends to be "non-organic bread" or the occasional unsalted crisp, whereas I was provided with a bag of quavers to give a 10-month old for a snack theother day. I feel like a criminal offering these tiny people food I wouldn't choose myself. I also had a 17 day old TINY baby to look after and on picking him up for a snuggle, he STANK of ciggie smoke. So did his blanket so did his pushchair. Babies hair should smell of warm and vanilla, NOT fags.

[citizentwiglet]

You're so right about what they manage to digest whilst we worry about weaning / sterilising everything to within an inch of ecological disaster....I gave up sterilising Ellis's stuff when I caught him munching on soil from the pot plant (he was about 7 months old then)! I thought 'Hell to it', packed it all away and just made sure his stuff was 'socially clean'. (My kitchen floor, incidentally, is hardly ever socially clean!).

I have mates who regularly (and I mean two or three times a week) sterilise all available toys, boil-wash the teddies etc etc (their children are all about a year old now), then take them to toddler group and won't let them play with the toys...their children always seem to be poorly with some tummy-upset or another. Chubby-Stump here has never been afflicted with anything like that.

Like you say, Circlecross, it's about finding what works for you. There are some parents who don't give a hoot about smoking around their babies and feeding them rubbish; but sometimes I think that being neurotic about what they eat and what they play with and how sterile their environment is can be just as damaging, IYSWIM.

[Russian Doll]

my four have never styed on the centiles and i have never cared...hannah went to the top one at 4 months and the health visitors said she would be overweight etc and i must be feeding her wrong...i never listened to them and carried on doing what i was doing and hannah is now a tall leggy slim very healthy 8 year old...