windows? whats the right way to go?

[red]

we only have single glazing here.. and the North side of the house gets lots of weather and the windows will need replacing soon. obviously I want DG

what materials should I think about? UPVC is a no-no - but is oak sustainable? pine and repaint? prolly wont last long... - weather comes from Dartmoor.. house has slate hung sides for a reason....

any thoughts?

[Muddypause]

Assuming you don't have unlimited financial resources, I guess an early consideration is whether your window openings will take standard frame sizes. This would work out cheaper than having frames made to size, regardless of what material you use.

uPVC looks awful, and are a product of the petro-chemical industry, but they should last indefinitely, use no preservatives and will need no regular repainting. If the sealed units ever need replacing, you just pop them out and fit the new ones without needing to hack away at paintwork etc. They don't decay, so disposal at the end of their life is also a problem, though this does mean you can get decent secondhand uPVC frames.

I don't think anything will be completely environmentally benign. Oak can make fine windowframes if you have deep pockets and can find a supplier (you may have to have them specially made). But the oak may well be European or American, rather than local. You only need to slosh some oil on it every couple of years, but where does teak oil (for example) come from?

Other hardwood options include the more common mahogany, which will prolly be a little cheaper than oak (and not as durable), but will have been shipped from half way around the world. Most timber can be sourced from a managed forest, and many manufacturers will be pleased to tell you how sustainable their products are these days.

Softwood frames will almost certainly have been pressure treated with preservative in order to conform to building regs. (this even applies to many hardwoods, too, though I'm not sure if this is a requirement or not), and usually come ready primed. This all pretty much forces you to use paint or some other coating, rather than oil, and will need regular repainting, which is both a chore (if you do it yourself), or expensive (if you employ someone like me to do it), and has environmental consequenses too. But Sadolin have brought out a new type of paint which they say only needs one extra coat every five or six years, and the only preparation you need to do is wash it down with soapy water.

If you can afford it, oak would be lovely, but for most people, softwood is the practical non-uPVC alternative.

[Thurston Garden]

Red - a useful link here

[paddy]

International do paint for boats and if prepared properly you may get 10 years out of their paint.

It's about 4 times the price of normal paint though

[red]

thanks for the replies so far - more please!

Muddy - no our windows wont be standard size as the house is 400 years old in places ,,,we dont have straight walls and level floors.. nevermind standard windows We dont have deep pockets.. but want to do the right thing. Upvc is sposed to last long - but the manufacture etc is eco-bad and I think would look not great on our house - I woul love oak.. but dont wanna be doing something bad there either.. and no idea of cost.. just lots....

TG - thanks for that link, will look into that later

Paddy - dont marine paints have more nasties in them than house paints?

[paddy]

Well i used it on my front and back doors and after 2 years looks like it was done yesterday and i live in a wilder place than Dartmoor.

Nasties?? well it stinks when you paint it but i think it is similar to car paint.

The one i used was " deck paint " so it hasnt got that anti-fouling stuff in.

[red]

well it does rain alot here. but I am not too worried about getting barnicals on the window frames......

[paddy]

well it does rain alot here. but I am not too worried about getting barnicals on the window frames......

Good stuff though honest, we have lots of rain wind and storms and dogs havent managed to scrape it off either.

Man in local paint shop knew of it and said " if i sold that i would be out of business within 12 months" ......so i had to buy from far away.

[Thurston Garden]

I collected my copy of The Green Building Bible from the library last night, and on skimming through, I noticed it commenting on uPVC windows sometimes not being sealed properly and therefore letting in draughts.

I think these draughts might be unnoticeable in the standard term draughts as I (and I guess Red too by the age of his house) know it. It was in the chapter about air tightness - apparently the air creeps into the uPVC frame an finds its way through into the building, thus providing cold air which needs heating!

Looks like a good book, but it's going to be technical and take some time to read I think!

[Thomzo]

I hate to state the obvious but if a house is completely airtight you will very quickly suffocate! You need a certain air flow to get enough oxygen and stop a build up of water vapour and poisonous gasses.

Red, if your house is that old, is it listed? If it is then you have very few options and will have to get listed building consent before doing anything.

Zoe

[red]

nope its not listed as has had too many alterations over the years (thank goodness cos listed status is difficult to work with)

but I do want to do something sympathetic with the house, and not stuff up the charm etc.. and also old houses bring practical issues.. our walls are 2 ft thick and granite... so we wont be altering the window openings

as TG said - there are draughts and draughts.. we have the kind that makes the wind chime in the *living room* crash about..... has all got to be sorted...

[Muddypause]

...it commenting on uPVC windows sometimes not being sealed properly and therefore letting in draughts.

It's an interesting comment, TG; I wonder what the context was? Any window can be badly fitted, but new windows will in any case be fitted with trickle vents by requirement. Strictly speaking they aren't necessary on replacement windows, but you'd be hard pressed to find a ready-made window without one. The issue is that modern building regs. specify that a house is now sealed up pretty air-tight, and condensation and stale air becomes a problem. Although you will lose heat as the air is replaced, you have got to gradually change the air in a building.

Red, if it was me, I might consider fitting an outer frame into the window openings that a standard frame would fit into - line the opening with timber so that the inside of the lining corresponds to the size of a ready made frame. There are a few things to consider, like how the sills and any drip headers go, and also reducing the cold bridge that solid timber may introduce. You will lose a bit of glass area, but done properly, this can work out quite well, and mean that you can use cheaper off-the-shelf frames.

But if you are planning on the DIY route, be aware that replacing windows these days requires building regs. approval at the relevant fee. The alternative is to employ an approved company which can self-certify its own work. Another alternative is to forget to tell anyone that you are doing the work, but I wouldn't dream of suggesting that this may happen to you (ask the glazier to forget to date-stamp the glazing units, though).

[Millymollymandy]

Don't you have tropical hardwood windows available? That is what I would go for here in France. Have had PVC windows installed on a 70s house but would never install them in an old house. Thankfully our current 18th C house has varnished tropical hardwood double glazed windows.

[Magpie]

OK, question from the other side of the world...

Have seen PVC windows on UK house shows, now read about them here - so are they really plastic? How 'bout the frames? Never seen them here, we do have aluminium frames, but they always have glass windows. Not much double glazing here though, which I understand the PVC ones are?

And what about the environmental implications of aluminium then?

[Muddypause]

It's the frames that are plastic, Magpie, not the glass. All new glazing in the UK has to be double glazing, and more recently has to include coated glass that reflects heat back into the room, too.

The form of PVC is unplasticised, hence the u in uPVC. This gives it better resistance to UV light, which would cause normal PVC to break down when exposed to sunlight.

There is a huge industry in the UK for replacement windows - which invariably means uPVC frames with double glazing - which had a terrible reputation for being the domain of pushy salesmen, cowboy fitters, fly-by-night companies... 5 out of ten phonecalls would be unsolicited canvassers offering you a special deal on double glazing; cold callers at the door every day... Things are a little better now, especially as replacement windows are now covered by building regulations.

Aluminium window frames never really caught on here, though you do see them occasionally. I don't think I've ever seen an aluminium frame fitted as new - they are all replacements. But the metal frame has poor heat insulation properties, and once the initial shiny coating has weathered off, aluminium is the devil's own job to paint effectively. By comparison, plastic is cheap, easy to make and install, needs no painting, and can be a good insulator.