existing without income

[jordan]

hello. My name is Jordan and i live in a residential part of ON, Canada. A friend and I are very interested in moving up to northern Canada and building our own log cabin. We believe that life shouldn't be wasted on working your entire life, and I was wondering in regards to food, taxes, and other expenses (not including a car) if it would be possible to live without income. We love work, and would be willing to do so if the work was things such as growing our own garden or building a log cabin; not working for some company for a cheque. Anyways I appreciate your input.

From Jordan.

[wulf]

On things like taxes, it will depend on the Canadian laws - I've no idea! I'm not sure whether you could entirely do without monetary income without withdrawing completely from society; even if Canada makes that legal, it might not be entirely beneficial to do so. It certainly wouldn't work for me - no income would mean no Internet!

Wulf

[Andy Hamilton]

Hello Jordan and welcome.

I know that land is much cheaper in canada (than here), so I guess you could own enough land to live off. You could even grow enough to sell some to someone. Also if you have enough money to start with so you can buy a wind turbine or something to generate electricity (if you want to run a computer), if you generate too much you can sell some back to the electricity companies to pay for the internet.

I would have thought that the romantic dream of being totally self sufficient could be just that. What happens when you have a bad harvest one year and can't afford to eat. Far better that you either have money put by or have preserved enough food to live off. - could you live for a year on dried peas

I too would like to become totaly self sufficient eventually, my plan is to work part time and work as much land as I can next year, brew as much as possible and work part time. Even then I will only be selfsufficient 'ish' . It is not something to be taken lightly, might I suggest doing the same and working up to being totaly self sufficient, perhaps over a few years?

[Muddypause]

Hello Jordan,

It's an interesting idea. I too, am not keen on this so called 'work ethic' - I just can't seem to muster enough enthusiasm about money to want to spend too much time earning any. But I'm also with Wulf here - not using any money would probably only be possible if you withdrew from society, and I'm not sure if that is either possible or desirable.

The best decision I ever made was to become self-employed around 15 years ago. Since then I have only worked when I see fit to - just enough to pay the essential bills. In a way, I see this as a form of self sufficiency - or maybe self dependency at least. But I'm in a fortunate position of being able to make this work for me; I know other self-employed people who work very long hours, and yet still seem to struggle to make ends meet.

In the UK (and probably Canada, too) we pay a level of tax dependant upon how much we earn. Around the first £4.5k is tax free, and the next £1.5k or so is at 10%, so it's possible to earn a little over £100 a week and only pay a tiny amount of tax. Living where I do it is not possible to live on that, but given different circumstances it may be possible. Having said that, I actually think paying tax is A Good Thing (gasp!), and leads to an accountable administration and mature society.

Given enough time, land and labour, being entirely self-sufficient is probably very possible, but I would still imagine that you would need some sort of investment capital.

[jordan]

thanks for all your answers so far! Very helpfull.

Muddypause, I was just wondering what you do for your income, or if you had any ideas for other low hour, low pay self employed or other employed jobs.

Thanks



Jordan

[Muddypause]

If I'm trying to impress people, I tell them I'm in building maintenance, but in reality I'm an odd-job handyman type of thing. This can range from fitting kitchens to cutting grass, but is mostly painting and decorating. When I started out, I thought this would do until I could think of what I really wanted to do as a job, but after 15 years I'm still a handyman (good with me hands, but not so good with me brain).

I would reckon that this type of work is pretty universal in its demand - wherever there are people, someone will need some odd jobs doing. I've never advertised, my first couple of jobs were for friends, and they recommended me to others. Often there will be times when work is sparse, but that suits me, and I've vowed never to chase money. There is a strange cosmic equation that always seems to apply to me - whenever I have a bill to pay I will always get enough work to cover it; I've never had any excess, but I've never failed to pay my bills, either.

I also find that if I'm in a room that has, say, 10 people in it, and someone asks what I do for a living, if I reply in a voice just loud enough for others to hear, one of them will invariably ask if I can do some work for them.

I was wondering if you have a local Lets scheme in Canada (Local Exchange Trading System)? You join a network of people and, in return for a service or product, you are credited with trading units, which you can then spend within the network. Google should provide more info. In the UK the local groups have various success, some of them being quite vibrant, but others seem to get bogged down with an excess of baby-sitting and ironing services. And buying a pint of beer with a Let unit is not easy.

[Magpie]

Yes, Muddypause, I thought of bartering, too. I suspect you might have to be in a sympathetic community in order to do that properly, though, if there isn't a LETS or similar scheme in place. The local Post office may not appreciate being paid for stamps in eggs!

I think Self sufficiency is something to be worked towards, not jumped into boots and all. I think that would be just too hard. Even the pioneers didn't just go form everything to nothing... you might end up like those people on those awful TV reality shows!
On the other hand, I sometimes think if I don't just do it, I never really will... I guess it depends on your skills, back-up monetry supply, family situation (I have 3 children, so the stakes are higher) and also personal mental strength.

Let us know how you go!

[jordan]

as of now, I am researching Canadian taxes which can be difficult at my age (16) but I will get to the bottom of it. I am also trying to devise a plan on low income living, and trying to estimate the amount of money I will be spending weekly. Oh and Im listening to the tragically hip. :) well Ill keep y'all posted


Jordan

[Wombat]

G'Day Jordan,

I saw and read this on the Homestead Family site first. It is a bit dated but may give you some ideas!

Nev

http://www.f4.ca/text/possumliving.htm

[wulf]

Low-income is probably more realistic than no-income.

Wulf

[cheap&cheerful]

Wombat,

I really loved the possumliving site. Sometimes I read something and would love to meet the people. They sounded the salt of the earth.

I loved the bit where she said her dad wouldn't let her test the mushrooms because she hadn't fulfilled her "Link in the Chain of Being".

The site was published 27 years ago, I expect she has by now. I was going to print it off so I could have a leisurely read later but it is 72 pages, so I've put it in favorites so I can read it as and when.

If you know of any other sites like this one I would be very interested. I find listening to people talk about their life and experiences is so much interesting and informative than people trying to sell a book.

Magpie,

The biggest piece of advice I would give anyone about to up stakes is do your research.

We spent 3 months, deciding where we were going to go and why. We didn't want to buy a cheap property in the middle of nowhere to end up being isolated and costing a fortune in petrol to get anywhere!

About another 4 months looking for a suitable property that fitted most of the criteria on my list.

And a further 18 months getting things right this end and at the same time doing my homework about what we were going to do once we got there. It's highly unlikely but hopefully it will save us making too many mistakes once we are there.

I've got three huge folders of information that I have printed off for reference, right from The Fantastic Fly by Kurt Saxon through to the Three Sisters Planting that I got from this site.

As I've mentioned before the one I have found invaluable (apart from this one of course!) is Mother Earth News. So much of what is in the archives (50 years worth) comes from the early homesteaders experiences, before mechanical bits and pieces.

Wish you luck with whatever you decide to do.

Jill..

[shiney]

I have to agree with you wulf, I work from home so that I am here for my kids and to keep my sanity! I don't bring much in, but I love doing what I do and I can stop and start as I like to. My partner works full time for the ambulance service. Poor pay, but you can just about survive on it! It's a job he loves doing and that's the main thing.

I also love cooking for my family and make sure there's a good wholesome meal on the table each day. If I went to work, I would miss that, be too tired for my children and wouldn't have so much desire to cook a meal when I got home.

I don't want lots of stuff, just to live as much as I can by cutting our cloth according to our coats. I think that's what a lot of people have forgotten how to do it. We do get new things now and again, but we try and save up for it. Not easy, but do able.

That's what I like about being self sufficient ish!

But..good luck Jordon, I hope you find a happy medium.

[hay331]

I too chose to stay at home with my 4 children, (they are all doing well)I didn't grow stuff then but meals were made from scratch and healthy, as you say Shiney you cut your cloth accordingly. I am trained with computers and barter that skill (usually bottles of wine!). I live in a council house but it leads directly onto woods and has a large garden.
Theoretically I suppose you could just eat what you grow if you have enough land, I believe our ancestors did that. Another way is to have a longer term plan, work for enough years to be able to purchase the things required to be self sufficient (solar panels and things). IMHO, the way society has developed it would virtually impossible to live without some kind of income, nails for repair work for example cost money. I suppose it depends on how you want to live and what you want from life Jordan but good luck with whatever it is you choose!

An website that might answer some of your questions http://www.judyofthewoods.com/

[Magpie]

Jill
I love the old Mother magazines, but find the new ones a bit too commercial.
My favourite magazines are both Australian - Grass Roots, and Earth Garden http://www.earthgarden.com.au/ .

We have been on this journey to Self Sufficiency for about 8 years now, trying to scrape together enough money to buy land, but always seem to be a bit short. So that is, of course, where the 'ish' comes into it. I have met so many interesting people through the journey, and it has led us in directions I never imagined at the start, Home education for the children, for a start.

Maybe it really is the journey that's important, rather than the destination! Being able to have chooks would be nice, though....

[Wombat]

Jill,

If you put "voluntary simplicity" or "frugal" or "frugality" into your web browser you will come up with some stuff (quite a lot actually) that you may find interesting.

I have some of Kurt Saxons books from my surivialist days, an interesting man with interesting ideas. Last time I tried to get onto his website I couldn't so I dont know what has happened to him.

Mother Earth News has good stuff but here you will pay AUD 15 or more for an issue so I don't get it often, but then the home grown magazines are good too. Magpie, do you guys get the magazine ReNew from the Aternative Technology Association? We get it in the newsagents here. The association does most of its work in Victoria unfortunately and when I contacted the NSW rep nothing much was going on here.

Nev