Can our pigs remain viable?

[Stonehead]

I've just ordered in my next load of barley and straw, and the cheapest prices I could get mean a 50% hike in the cost of barley against last year and a 20% hike in the cost of straw.

At the same time, I can't put our pork prices up as we've just increased them by £5 a half pig to cover rising costs for fuel, slaughter and butchering.

Now, we don't aim to recoup my labour costs (that's covered by the pork for us plus the manure for the veggies), but the pigs have to pay for themselves, their feed, bedding, slaughter, butchering and transport, and make an ongoing contribution to vet's bills, fencing and housing.

But when I work my numbers out now, we'll be a whisker under £15 out of pocket for our January pigs! That's almost entirely due to the rise in straw and barley costs.

I definitely can't put prices up again as I'm on the limit of what most people up here are prepared to pay (or can afford to pay in some cases).

So, we're going to have to have a serious think about how to progress but it does raise a question mark about the viability of the pigs.

[Chickpea]

That's bad news Stoney. A few thoughts (probably all stupid ones).

Could you grow your own barley, and thus become self-sufficient or partially so in barley and straw? It sounds like straw is the business to be in at those prices!

Processing food adds value - chips are worth more per kilo than spuds. Could you process your pigs and increase the value - sell sausages rather than pork?

Anyway good luck with it. After all the time and money you've invested in pigville I do hope you can make it work.

[Stonehead]

That's bad news Stoney. A few thoughts (probably all stupid ones).

Could you grow your own barley, and thus become self-sufficient or partially so in barley and straw? It sounds like straw is the business to be in at those prices!

Processing food adds value - chips are worth more per kilo than spuds. Could you process your pigs and increase the value - sell sausages rather than pork?

Anyway good luck with it. After all the time and money you've invested in pigville I do hope you can make it work.

I could grow barley on a couple of acres, but I'd have to get machinery in (big cost) or do it by hand (more time). I've already looked into growing bere (an ancient form of barley, now only grown on Orkney) by hand but it really needs to wait until I've got other jobs sorted. (It's the time equation - I only have so much, so I have to be very careful how I use it.)

We already grow some vegetables for pig food, but I'd have to up the amount considerably to replace the barley to a large extent. Fruit and vegetables already take up around two hours a day through the peak season - whether cultivating, sowing, weeding, pruning, thinning, picking, processing, etc.

We already get the pork butchered (chops, joints, etc). The problem is that if I do this myself, I have to take the time off something else and also invest in equipment and fitting out a suitable room or outbuilding. Same with sausages - I've been turning 40lb of pork into sausages by hand but this takes some time! One of my butchers will do the boning, skinning and mincing for me in return for homebrew, but the other will only do it for cash.

And most of the home electric mincers can't process large volumes of meat without overheating - 5-10lb at a go is about the limit. A commercial mincer costs rather more than we can afford.


The barley and straw problem comes down to climate change. Vegetables yields across Europe are down massively, while cereal yields - including barley - are also down. So while some Scottish farmers are getting reasonable to good yields, the increased demand from parts of England plus swathes of Europe means higher prices.

At the same time, higher fuel prices mean higher combining and transport costs although this is partially offset by lower costs for drying grain due to the dry spell.


Oh, and we also discovered that while the OH will get a small annual pay rise next year, the council tax is also predicted to rise by more than her pay rise. We find this really annoying as every year we've been up here, the council tax rise has always exceeded her annual pay rise (she's employed by council) so we get further behind every year.

We now pay just under a month's net income in council tax, while next year I think we'll find it's just over a month's net income! Then, I've also worked out that VAT takes up just under two months net income, and fuel excise and road tax just over a month. So, we only get the benefit of eight month's net income, except that the OH's chartered teacher course costs another's month's income.

So, we're down to seven months income for us but then we have to pay the mortgage, all the insurances, car maintenance etc.

It means we get about six weeks net income a year to spend on everything else. As a result, we have to get as much food and cash from the croft as possible. It is do-able, just, but our margin is hair thin.

It's far worse trying to keep our finances balanced, than it was trying to keep a £10 million budget under control!!!!!

Anyway, enough number crunching. Time for lunch and then some rugby with the boys.

[Shirley]

Yikes stoney

I have never broken down the household income/expenditure like that - I think I'll have to have a look - it might help us!! Thanks. I totally agree... household budget is harder to look after than £x million accounts!

Why don't you come and talk on Neeps - there are others in the area doing the same sort of thing... perhaps it could be a joint initiative to grow wheat/barley whatever is needed or somehow or even just swap ideas/stories with others facing the same or similar challenges.

[den_the_cat]

are there any local-ish schools, restaurants, nursing homes or similar which would give you their leftovers and peelings etc for swill? It might not be the quality you'd like but combined with your own stuff and barley it might make the difference between break even and a loss....

[Stonehead]

are there any local-ish schools, restaurants, nursing homes or similar which would give you their leftovers and peelings etc for swill? It might not be the quality you'd like but combined with your own stuff and barley it might make the difference between break even and a loss....

That's both illegal and dangerous as the chances of disease outbreaks are quite high.

Obviously, I could bring some of our costs down by being more intensive and cutting corners but that's not what we're about so I'm not going to do that.

Anyway, I hope people don't mind this thread, because I thought it might be a useful reality check for people mad enough to attempt what we're doing.

And now, back to chicken plucking... yes, really.

[Chickpea]

Mind this thread? Not at all, Stoney. I for one am absolutely fascinated by the insights you give into actually doing what I hope to do one day. Fascinated, and also slightly discouraged and depressed.

[su]

I'm pleased you put this thread up too - it's certainly opened my eyes to the financial problems we too will face. I'm a nurse and the hubby is a maintenance fitter - we had to re-mortgage the house to pay for the land and seeing as we cant 'officially' live on the land then we still both have to work and pay the mortgage.

I keep asking if I can give up work to spend more time on the land but keep getting the 'we both need to keep on working dear' reply. It's difficult with work then having to travel up to check and feed the livestock twice a day as well as care for the allotment etc etc.

At the moment I sell half a dozen, fresh,delicious, free-range eggs for a mere 50p. It covers the cost of the layers pellets and corn. The original girls were free but we've just invested in some pure breeds - marans, brahmas, light sussex and welsummers at point of lay (they weren't cheap) so the price of the eggs will have to increase and I feel guilty about it.

The pigs we have will be for our consumption although there are many people willing to buy rare breed, free-range pork but when push comes to shove will they pay the prices that are needed to cover the costs - we don't know!

We've had our 'bit of England' for three years but this is the first year we've grown our own food and had livestock - we've had to invest in so much thus far and there's always another 'bit' the tractor needs or more fencing to invest in. You find yourself begging, stealing or borrowing bits and pieces. We're determined to make it work and sometimes it's the only thing that keeps us going. Hopefully we'll look back in a few years time and know that it was all worth it.

[Boots]

mmm. I think what you have identified Stoney is the difference between what we call feed lot and grazing...

Feedlot animals are confined and fed on bulk (often processed, sometimes just grains) to produce quick gains.

Grazers take longer to reach weight but are fed reduced or often no supplementary feed, as it is all drawn from the environment.

I tend toward a bit of both, preferring the second, but having no alternative during the recent drought to opt for the the first method. The last pig I sent through was raised entirely on what I would rather just refer to as supplementary feeds (local grains), because the pens became so bare and food was just plain scarce. There was limited and then no milk, ducks went off the lay, all greens died...

The previous pigs however, cost us nothing but purchase price and butchering because they were raised during excellent grazing periods. I had plenty of feed growing and the last one got stacks of citrus, eggs, milk, spuds, corn and a variety of soils/manures etc. Everything was grown here. Your paddocks look top notch, and you certainly appear to have good feed there.

I keep supplementary feeds on hand, but don't teach reliance on bagged feed if I can help it, because they are very routine animals and will demand it if it a routine is created. Unfortunately conditions created it with the last pig and as a result she was a lousy plough and cost that much, I simply wasn't game to even add it up!

If you are prepared to extend your growing time, you could revert to natural feeds - but you may have trouble with your old breeders as they may object if they are used to bulk feeds. As I am sure you know, a hungry pig is a pain in the butt, and can often be dangerous, so I guess you may be stuck feeding them as they are accustomed, because they can get pretty stubborn. The old ones probably won't revert very easily. Your new arrivals could be raised naturally though. From your environment, I mean. They will take longer to reach size (couple more months), but if they aren't costing you anything, then it doesn't matter.

But maybe you have time constraints, where you need to have them at size for a certain time of year? Not sure how things work over there... Another consideration might be to bring another grazing animal (depending on your space) who could add to the feed...but then you have to make sure your land can feed that too.

Good luck with it all. Oh, and its not illegal to source waste products like bread or tainted fruit and veg. You can't access restaurant or mixed 'swill' because of the chance of meat contamination, but products that are clearly free of any contact with meat are fine. Well, that's here... Again, could be different there, but I think that's international and extends to all pork/ potential exports.

Reduce inputs to increase outputs, and she'll be right mate.

[Stonehead]

Our pigs are not feed lot animals!

Our pigs are strip grazed on grass as well as barley and seasonal vegetables/fruit, then brought into pens if they're destined for slaughter as it gives us better control over feed for the last month. The pens are rotated, so one is down to potatoes, another to grass and so on. The pigs follow the crops or grass.

The pens are also used to house the boar and sows with piglets up to weaning, but again they are re-seeded or put down to vegetables to rest them.

This is very far removed from intensive, feed lot rearing.

Yes, we have to provide additional feed in the form of barley but the pigs could not thrive on grass or grass and a few veg alone. I think you'd find most UK outdoor reared pigs are fed like this - grazing plus cereals, veg and fruit or processed feeds.

And yes, it is illegal in the UK to feed your animals catering waste from any premises where meat has been handled. That definitely means nothing from supermarkets, restaurants, hotels, etc. It comes under the Animal By-Products Regulations 2003, which bans the feeding of meat, fish and most other products of animal origin to ruminants, pigs or poultry.

The regulations make it an offence to allow pigs to have access to such material and they prohibit any catering waste being fed, whether processed or not.

And I'd like to see someone successully rear pigs on grass alone with no supplementary feeding.

[Shirley]

I must add... that the pork that we bought from you Stoney... is by far the very best I've ever tasted!

[Boots]

Ooookay.....

Why do I get the feeling the answer you really wanted was... Put your prices up?

We can change the aethetics all we like and give them a bit more space, but if the method of feeding is no different, what have we really changed? Your complaint about viability is based on barley and straw prices. I was answering that, and providing in-house alternatives and just sharing another way... and some of the pitfalls that make that way difficult. Pigs root... they do eat grass and surface finds, but they feed primarily on the root systems and earth. They've been doing that since the beginning of time and it is only confined farming practices and that have trained them to eat above the ground.

If you truly want a solution here Stoney, you may need to recognise that none of us get it right all the time, and we have to constantly rethink our actions and be flexible enough to adapt to changes that constantly occur. There will be pigs who will never revert to innate behaviours because genetically it has been virtually stamped out of them. What is clear is that you have identified a problem that needs a proactive response. Stubbornness or pride won't bring down the price of barley or straw.

I think a lot of you. I didn't mean to upset or offend. As a fellow Aussie I hope you can appreciate that if you ask a question, you will get a thoughtful and honest reply. That doesn't mean I'm right and it doesn't mean your wrong. It's called a conversation.

[Stonehead]

Ooookay.....

Why do I get the feeling the answer you really wanted was... Put your prices up?

No.

I wasn't even asking a question, much less looking for a particular answer. I just thought people might be interested in the actuality of rearing pigs as experienced by us.

As for the rest, life's too short so I won't be taking this "conversation" any further.

[Chickpea]

Moving swiftly along...

It is illegal in the UK to feed any food waste to farm animals, including a private householder feeing carrot peelings and leftover cornflakes etc. to 2 backyard chickens. So I would never do that. Oh no. I would put my waste food into the landfill like a responsible citizen. <snort>

If I was keeping them for sale rather than just private use I would categorically not do that.

[Shirley]

It is illegal in the UK to feed any food waste to farm animals, including a private householder feeing carrot peelings and leftover cornflakes etc. to 2 backyard chickens.

IS it illegal to do this?? Really?? I might be misreading it because I'm sleepy this morning - for some reason I couldn't sleep last night. Could sleep now mind you but kids have other thoughts