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Post: # 86835Post ina »

MikeM wrote:my stand is that a lot of people don't have much option but to do the normal thing. Asking them to change something that is largely beyond their control, based upon nothing more than a theory, is very unfair. To then go on and call it an excuse is extremely harsh. You called them selfish and bloody minded and that their behaviour is "unacceptable", yet you offer no actual workable solution the their problems.
OK - what are their problems - let's see if we can come up with solutions! They "have to" take their kids to school by car - because the kids can't be bothered to stand outside in the rain and wait for the school bus? There aren't many places in the UK where there would not be a school bus, or other public transport... And if they did live in one of those rare problems, I'd bet it's by choice.

Next problem, please!
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Post: # 86838Post MikeM »

they have to drive to work, as most people aren't lucky enough to live next door to work. They have to work to pay the mortgage or rent as most people are not lucky enough to be mortgage free. They have to work to buy food, and gas and electric as most people aren't lucky enough to have a smallholding that will provide it.

Like it or not, we live in a money economy. With that comes certain necessities, one of those is car use.

And stonehead, you may make what decisions about your life as you wish (as may I), what you can't do is impose your moral beliefs on others. I'm sure you'd object if others imposed their beliefs on you.

There were accusations made in this thread that people were selfish and bloodyminded, I merely pointed out that it's not that simple. Still, it's good to see that you welcome dissenting opinions round here, pots and kettles? :lol:
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Post: # 86841Post ina »

MikeM wrote:they have to drive to work, as most people aren't lucky enough to live next door to work. They have to work to pay the mortgage or rent as most people are not lucky enough to be mortgage free. They have to work to buy food, and gas and electric as most people aren't lucky enough to have a smallholding that will provide it.
If everybody considered the fact that they have to get to work when they chose their house or flat, there'd be much less of a problem with car trips to work. (That was always my first consideration when finding somewhere to live! But most people chose where they want to live first, and then think about how they get to work.) A lot more people could car share, work from home, take public transport. If people stopped wanting to buy homes that are far from work places, more would be built nearer to them, and better public transport would be developed.

There are very few small holdings that you could make a living from, btw - those that grow their own food do it generally because it's a quality that you can't buy. And they tend to go to work to pay their mortgage, and buy the feed for their animals, too.

Even you can't get away from the fact that in the very near future people won't have the fuel to do what they do now; wouldn't you think it's better to start preparing yourself for this change in lifestyle, than sticking your head in the sand saying "oh, there's nothing I can do about it, circumstances are like they are and the folk who come after me will have to deal with the problem"? I call that very, very selfish. No, we can't impose our life style on others. But we can truthfully say that they contribute more than we do to the deterioration in quality of life for those that come after us. And I have no personal interest in this, as I don't have children...
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Post: # 86845Post MikeM »

I can't remember the exact statistic, but the average time spent with one employer is now something like 5 years, should everyone have to move each time they change jobs? And what about their partners, where should they live?
I've personally had some jobs in some pretty awful places, why should I be forced to live there as well?

As for your comment:

"Even you can't get away from the fact that in the very near future people won't have the fuel to do what they do now"

how do you know what fuel sources we will have in the future? Maybe we'll have even more, and we can do even more things with it.
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Post: # 86847Post justskint »

I am going to have say.

Not everybody have the luxury of being able to afford a house near work, circumsctances change, the better off might have the privilege of being able to move but, the rest of us get stuck, not being able to move or sell.


Stuck in the poverty trap! Low pay, not affording to be green or any other colour.
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Post: # 86849Post ina »

MikeM wrote:I can't remember the exact statistic, but the average time spent with one employer is now something like 5 years, should everyone have to move each time they change jobs? And what about their partners, where should they live?
I've personally had some jobs in some pretty awful places, why should I be forced to live there as well?

As for your comment:

"Even you can't get away from the fact that in the very near future people won't have the fuel to do what they do now"

how do you know what fuel sources we will have in the future? Maybe we'll have even more, and we can do even more things with it.
Right - so all the scientists and folk who know about oil reserves etc are wrong, and you know it better. Fine. We'll speak again in 30 years' time.

Justskint - I know that at the moment there is the problem that a lot of places of work are not where you can live. But that's been building up for many years, and if people don't start demanding something different NOW, you'll be doing in future what they did centuries ago - you'll be walking 10 miles to work every day, because nobody ever thought of building houses nearer the factories, and there's no petrol left. Oh yes, back as well.

And yes, what's wrong with moving house every 5 years? The British are, I believe, the people with the highest private home ownership. If you'd rent more, it would be much easier to move; and yes, that will need change in the way houses are owned and administered, too. And if people were a bit less fussy about the types of jobs they'd find acceptable, they would find it easier to get to work without driving for miles and miles. I have two friends nearby, both with a PhD, who chose to take on jobs that really need no qualification whatsoever; they earn less, but they save a lot of money because they live near their places of work. And they save time, too - overall they have a higher quality of life, and a much smaller carbon footprint. Oh, btw - same goes for me, really: I have an MSc; but my job needs no qualification. But I can walk to work. And that was one of the reasons why I wanted this job. I doesn't pay well - but what the heck? If I earned more, I'd only have to drive a lot more.

Yes, I know, not everybody will be able to do exactly this - but I've never been talking about EVERYBODY; only that all people could do something to change their lifestyle, and to improve their environmental impact. But most aren't even prepared to think out of their box. And yes, I've been in very poorly paid jobs, had no car, could hardly afford the bus - well, I had a bike, and I had two feet for walking. (Btw, I always got to work on time - 4 miles away - unlike the car drivers, who couldn't get in because it snowed, or the roads were flooded, or their car broke down...) I also had no TV and no phone, which saved a lot of money! I don't want to hear about the poverty trap. There's always a way out, even if it's not easy.
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Post: # 86852Post justskint »

Ina

I agree with the majority of what you have to say, I may even have similar views but, we are unable to make changes with the lack of political willpower that exists. My view is that life is going to get a lot more difficult before the electorate decides otherwise. Yes I complain, recycle, walk as far as I can, cycle instead of using my motor, and so on. I also have a 16yr old son, I am concerened for his future, but it's out of my hands, I am now a fatalist!
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Post: # 86854Post MikeM »

ina wrote:
MikeM wrote:I can't remember the exact statistic, but the average time spent with one employer is now something like 5 years, should everyone have to move each time they change jobs? And what about their partners, where should they live?
I've personally had some jobs in some pretty awful places, why should I be forced to live there as well?

As for your comment:

"Even you can't get away from the fact that in the very near future people won't have the fuel to do what they do now"

how do you know what fuel sources we will have in the future? Maybe we'll have even more, and we can do even more things with it.
Right - so all the scientists and folk who know about oil reserves etc are wrong, and you know it better. Fine. We'll speak again in 30 years' time.
No need for the hostility, clearly you can't make a coherant and convincing argument without resorting to aggression, that's a shame really. This was just a friendly discusson, obviously you don't welcome dissenting opinions.
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Post: # 86857Post red »

we do still all make choices that are, essentially selfish though. For example, I'm here, at night, using the internet, computer and lightbulb, to post on this forum, and that uses energy... its not really excusable....
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Post: # 86859Post justskint »

red wrote:we do still all make choices that are, essentially selfish though. For example, I'm here, at night, using the internet, computer and lightbulb, to post on this forum, and that uses energy... its not really excusable....
Of course it's excusable, what else are you going to do, sit in the dark wearing your habit. Become a monk, go to bed when the light fades, get up in the early hours and pray. Turn the fridge freezer off as well!
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Post: # 86862Post Wombat »

I suppose the point here is that we should do what we can.

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Post: # 86868Post red »

justskint wrote: Of course it's excusable, what else are you going to do, sit in the dark wearing your habit. Become a monk, go to bed when the light fades, get up in the early hours and pray. Turn the fridge freezer off as well!
well no. if nothing else cos I'm sure you have to be a bloke to become a monk... and I really don't see me becoming a nun....
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Post: # 86872Post Stonehead »

MikeM wrote:And stonehead, you may make what decisions about your life as you wish (as may I), what you can't do is impose your moral beliefs on others. I'm sure you'd object if others imposed their beliefs on you.
Oh, go bag your head and misinterpret somebody else. You're obviously on a troll.
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Post: # 86878Post justskint »

red wrote:
justskint wrote: Of course it's excusable, what else are you going to do, sit in the dark wearing your habit. Become a monk, go to bed when the light fades, get up in the early hours and pray. Turn the fridge freezer off as well!
well no. if nothing else cos I'm sure you have to be a bloke to become a monk... and I really don't see me becoming a nun....
LOL apologies..
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Post: # 86879Post red »

:mrgreen:
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