Differences

[chadspad]

This is not a question more an observation at how life is different in my part of France. A few years ago back in the UK, I helped out at my sons playgroup. A little girl of about 2 was bursting to go to the toilet - I got up to take her. The teacher pretty much screamed at me that I wasnt allowed to help her as I wasnt police checked etc. I understand where she was coming from but I felt awful and dirty like I had done something wrong. Years previously, my Dad came to pick me up from work and was early so went to the end of the road to watch the planes at the local airbase. A bloke came out and accused my Dad of watching his girls playing around their caravan - thi made my Dad feel dirty. I have since heard many stories of how things have changed in the UK with adults not being allowed to takes photos or video recordings of their children in school plays etc. Whilst I understand the concerns, the shame of being a decent adult unable to help a child or enjoy your own childrens achievements is very sad.
My recent role with my sons school in France is to help out at the swimming pool - I am on toilet duty and help the children if they need to get out of the pool and also in the changing rooms. These are kids of 4 and 5 years old. My friends daughter this week asked me to help her take her wet cozzie off as it was tight. I did but tentatively and trying to avert my eyes, feeling very awkward. She had by then taken it completely off and ask me to help her with her other things. I was completely torn as to what to do - she was obviously struggling but I just did not know what I was allowed to do. The headmistress was then walking over and I was waiting for her to tell me that I was not supposed to be near her etc but she just chatted to us both and walked away. I realise that I could still have been a pervert but Im not, and my faith in their faith in me was restored.

[Martin]

some form of paranoid lunacy has descended on us - I suspect that there's no more paedophilia now than there was 50 years ago (possibly less!), yet perfectly nice, safe people now have this dreadful guilt-trip laid on them!
Most people of my generation have photographs of themselves as babies or toddlers without clothes - it was a popular subject for camera clubs, and the "baby lying on a rug" picture was a staple of many a high-street photographer. Nowadays we'd think that's highly dubious, but then it was totally acceptable - elderly aunts would croon over them, and years later they would be dredged out by one's parents to show your girlfriend (to much amusement)
(carefully hides picture of self sitting in washbasin holding bar of soap with mass of curls on head! )

[pskipper]

It is difficult, my (happily) ex-brother-in-law would have a fit over anyone but my sister taking my niece to the toilet, she was at the age where she would go into the cubicle on her own, just wanted the re-assurance of an adult prescence. What gets my goat though is the people who are getting all stressed about paedophilia are usually the same ones who let their children dress like trollops! Why can't they let children be children!

[Clara]

Spain seems to have it sorted too, the main problem is trying to keep track of my baby when we go to market, as she gets passed ´round for inspection

Attitudes like the one you describe in the UK are very unfortunate, it has been shown to put men off training as primary school teachers or childcarers.

Clara x.

[the.fee.fairy]

I'm in agreement with everyone here!!

Its a resposibility thing - slowly, people are passing the blame onto everyone else. because there are a few news reports of a few paedophiles, suddenly, every adult is accused of harbouring sexual feelings towards children! parents are no longer taking responsibility of their own offspring (i am generalising - the odd thing i've noticed is that SSish people seem to have perfect resposibility - they're often talking about looking after their children, and berating others who do not do likewise).

In my experience working in a pub, i had to pick up an 18mth old girl (she was at the stage of just walking - i'm guessing the age). The3 child had been running around picking cutlery off the tables, putting it in her mouth and continuing to run. I asked the aprents to stop her becasue i was worried she was going to fall and seriously injure herself. They just said 'sit down' and turned back to their drinks. In the end, i picked up the child, took the cutlery off her and placed her on the seat next to the parents.

The next thing they said was 'did you touch her'. i was shocked!! i said i'd picked her up to stop her harming herself. the mother asked how i'd picked her up, and had any of my hands been near her 'nappy area'. In the end, i got the boss to throw them out for being irresponsible parents. it really did make me feel dirty, it made me wonder why i'd picked the child up, had i touched her anywhere i shouldn't? Had i made some movement that may have seemed to an outsider as if i'd done more than pick her up?

the answer is no, i hadn't done anything wrong, i'd merely picked her up (unde the arms just for reference!!) put her on my hip and carried her to her parents, then i'd put her on the seat next to her mother. There was nothing inapproprate about it.

The thing is, from this treatment, i'd feel odd about picking up a young child again, even if it was obviously going to injure itself, and the parents weren't watching. Just in case.

its a sad sad state for society to be in.

[red]

I think to be fair though - for every over paranoid parent you meet, you can balance that with the ones who just let their kids do anything, without paying any attention to where they are and what they are doing.

you do tend to notice the extreme cases, and normality goes by unnoticed.

[Stonehead]

you do tend to notice the extreme cases, and normality goes by unnoticed.

On the contrary! Normality is pretty much as described by all the previous posters.

A few examples of my own:

I've been stopped by police three times because I've been out with one of our young sons during "work" hours, told that it's suspicious (hence justifying their stop and question approach), asked to show ID, prove my son is in fact mine, etc. I always refuse and make it quite clear I am more than happy to escalate matters via their superiors and lawyers.

A number of mothers at our youngest's playgroup quite openly express their opinion that it's strange that I not only do my turn on the "parental" rota but that I actually enjoy it and am more than happy to fill in when other parents can't make it. They don't so much mind me doing it (a couple of other dads do it occasionally), as find it suspicious that I really do enjoy having a few hours fun with a bunch of littlies. (Interestingly, almost all the children say they wished their dads would play with them like I do.)

I've been in a public playground with one of our sons and had a teacher ask when I would be leaving so it would be safe for a group of school pupils to come in. I declined to leave, so the teachers had the children sit on the ground outside the playground until we decided to go (and yes, I admit to staying longer than I would otherwise have done).

I could give many other examples, but suffice to say this sort of thing is normality in the UK (having experienced things like this in London, Oxfordshire, North Yorkshire and Scotland). But it's not just confined to people suspecting that as a man you're probably a paedophile. Many women automatically assume you're a pervert and potential rapist as well.

I was in my car and saw a woman drive her car off the road. When I stopped to offer to tow her back on the road, she locked her car, screamed at me to go away and got on the phone very quickly.

On Friday, while walking into the village a few cars drove past the Wee 'Un and I. I didn't pay much attention but when I got to playgroup one of the mothers said "Oh, that was you walking in to the village. I wasn't sure and I wasn't about to stop for a strange man." Errm, how many perverts and weirdos take a small child for a walk along a country road as bait to catch unwary women?

Again, I could give more examples of this as it happens several times a year out here in the country and much more often in towns and cities. In London, when walking home from the tube station of an evening, I'd deliberately cross the road or take a different direction if I realised I was walking the same route as a woman on her own as I had too many experiences of women quite clearly getting nervous when they noticed a man walking the same way as them. (If you live in the same street as someone and they finish work around the same time as you, you're bound to end up walking in front or behind them at least a couple of times a week.)

It's all symptomatic of a poisoned, dysfunctional society. And people wonder why I prefer to spend more time with animals and children than alleged "adults".

[Clara]

That´s all terrible - especially the school teacher asking you to leave, what messages do they think they are sending out to children?

I have to say I think the media is to blame largely for all of this hysteria, not only are they making it difficult for anyone (esp men) to be with children but they are making men feel "dirty" and women afraid.

I seem to remember the following facts....

There are no more children killed by peadophiles now than there has been for the last 50 years, just much more media coverage.

As a woman your just as (un)likely to be attacked during daylight hours as night time - yet many women will not go out after dark for their own safety.

8 out of 10 murders are carried out by someone the victim knows, usually someone very close - yet we´re still scared of the stranger.

Sorry to be so dark.....

[Stonehead]

I have to say I think the media is to blame largely for all of this hysteria, not only are they making it difficult for anyone (esp men) to be with children but they are making men feel "dirty" and women afraid.

Yes and no. The media is not separate from or outside society, but is made up of members of society - and, in the UK, mainly of members of white middle class society.

That means that while the media does seize on particular issues and stories, it's not so much about engendering fear among the populace (although that may sometimes be a tactic) as about reflecting the fears of a certain part of the populace.

In reflecting those fears, it both reinforces them and spreads them further. At the same time, the middle class has been growing steadily for years so those reflected fears apply to an ever wider cross-section of society.

That's why the Madeleine disappearance story was so big. It was a middle-class professional family doing what many professional middle class families do (including members of the media) so it became a magnified reflection of their fears.

At the same time, it was a complete denial of the reality of middle-class families - many of whom see it as quite acceptable and normal to leave their children unattended so they can have a nice dinner in a restaurant.

But those very same people (and the media) would have been very quick to condemn a lower class or non-working family who "dumped" their kids so they could have a few pints down the boozer.

It's not the media that has the double standard - it's the section of society that most media people come from. The middle classes. Just as it is with fear of men, of strangers, of outsiders, of perverts, etc.

[Milims]

My children were indecently assaulted by a 12 year old girl and 2 10 year old boys, who are now all on a sex offenders register until they are17 - doesn't really fit the "profile"!
If its going to happen its going to happen - no matter how careful you are. There isn't an observers book of pereverts after all!! The thing is it could be anybody - its just lucky that they are in the minority. I feel very sad that we live in a society where the majority of "good people" are made to look and feel bad by a few wierdos and scaremongers!

[Thomzo]

It's just crazy nowadays that all men are assumed to be guilty until proved innocent. But the criminal records checks didn't stop Ian Huntly and they are now saying that a huge proportion of the people on the sex offenders register go missing.

The media does play on people's fears whipping up mass hysteria but at the end of the day they only do it because the public carry on buying the papers and watching the news.

Zoe

[circlecross]

It is seen as unusual for men to work in reception or pre-school - my dh was told by a parent that her daughter might be afraid of him as he is "a big man" (!) I worked with a man in the pre-school and he was refreshingly hands on, and changed nappies without question etc. It is a shame when you feel it may be questionable that men show affection, or carry out person care tasks. Agesvago I`worked for an american company and it gave guidelines for contact with children - ie stand behind them, place your right hand on their right shoulder...very comforting to a distraught child

[Stonehead]

Another example from playgroup this morning. I'm very popular with the children as I tell stories, come up with all sorts of weird and wonderful games to play, and help them make really interesting "stuff".

So, when I'm in the waiting room before it starts, all the children come racing over to say hello and want to play with me. And being little, they want to be hands on.

But, I have to be very, very careful not to touch any of them myself as the mums (and the occasional dad) watch me like a hawk the whole time with looks that range from the mildly dubious to the outright belligerent.

One little girl in particular was very excited and clambering on me, as well as pushing a bit. With my boys, I'd lift them down, then either tell them to calm down (if appropriate to what we're doing) or give them a tumble around (if appropriate).

But with her dad eyeballing me intently, all I could do was tell her firmly (but not too firmly) to stop. He didn't tell her to stop as he was too busy making sure I didn't do anything. In the end, I had to carefully get up off the chair and subtly shake her off without making contact with my hands.

If I didn't like and respect the kids so much, I'd send them packing as one of the Grandad does. They tend to avoid him because he's "grumpy" but because I'm friendly, they want to be with me.

It does make things very difficult with their parents, though.

[red]

its a real shame.

sad that people look accusing eyes at the wrong people, sad that its so unusual to have a man helping at playgroup, sad that you find yourself having to be so careful.

who is to blame?
the media in part yes,because sensationalism sells, and because an awlful lot of the population are parents so the media sees an easy subject,
the people who fund the media.. ie those that buy the papers..

the parents who use it as a weapon, something to threaten with (it happens, which just makes a nonsense of real problems)

and of course.. most of the blame has to land at the feet of the perverts.

who is to blame for the notion that its so unusual to see a man taking an interest in kids?

It's interesting, considering the differences between different countries. will these other countries with different attitude become just the same in time? would be interesting to see the statistics on attacks on children in other countries vs UK
(but then statistics are fraught with problems - 68% of all statistics are made up on the spot.... - you do have to be careful with stats - apparantly a lot of the reason a 'mediterranean diet' results in better hearts is because thosue countries count 'heart attack ' as sudden death not heart problems.... so the stats look good..but they dont actually have that many more old people....)

[mrsflibble]

I'm just starting out as a portrait photographer (woohoo back to work for a few hours every other week) but have found that when i branch out of doing jobs for people I know and start doing some "real" work, I need to be police checked.
yeah, I see the need for it but it's going to cost me about £150! I'll be in people's homes, but they will be with their kids the whole time, in some cases with child on lap yet I am still kind of made to fel like a criminal for just trying to do my job.
makes no sense.