I'd love to keep some pigs both for the company and for meat and it looks like my other half has an inclnation for it to.
I have never kept livestock only pets.
Are piglets a good start?
Is it difficult to comply withthe legislation?
What are their social requirement (other pigs and human contact)
Should I start with other animals and work up to pigs?
How much space do the need?
Feel free topoint me to ther resources that can answer these questions and also point out pitfalls.
Many thanks, Cassie
Keeping pigs in scotland - complete novice
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Thurston Garden
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Re: Keeping pigs in scotland - complete novice
Weaners (8 weeks olds) are the place to start.Cassiepod wrote:I'd love to keep some pigs both for the company and for meat and it looks like my other half has an inclnation for it to.
I have never kept livestock only pets.
Are piglets a good start?
Is it difficult to comply withthe legislation?
What are their social requirement (other pigs and human contact)
Should I start with other animals and work up to pigs?
How much space do the need?
Feel free topoint me to ther resources that can answer these questions and also point out pitfalls.
Many thanks, Cassie
It's not difficult to comply with: get a holding number from tour local SERAAD office, the seller (Stonehead (commission negotiable!)) will supply a license, and don't feed any kitchen waste.
Minimum of 2 pigs.
Get some hens while you are at it, then you can have sausage and eggs.
See my reply earlier re space http://www.selfsufficientish.com/forum/ ... php?t=6231 oh, and my blog (below) and Stonehead's (whom you are about to buy some weaners from!!) blog too.
Anything else, just ask.
Remember, dogs look up to you, cats look down on you, but pigs are equal .
Thurston Garden.
http://www.thurstongarden.wordpress.com
Greenbelt is a Tory Policy and the Labour Party intends to build on it. (John Prescott)
http://www.thurstongarden.wordpress.com
Greenbelt is a Tory Policy and the Labour Party intends to build on it. (John Prescott)
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Thurston Garden
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*Clears throat* http://stonehead.wordpress.com/2007/06/ ... ners-left/
Thurston Garden.
http://www.thurstongarden.wordpress.com
Greenbelt is a Tory Policy and the Labour Party intends to build on it. (John Prescott)
http://www.thurstongarden.wordpress.com
Greenbelt is a Tory Policy and the Labour Party intends to build on it. (John Prescott)
Looks like they might be all taken and I need to confirm it's possible, sensible, realistic before I start offering to take piglets from folk 
Also need to double check land lady will be ok and that OH realises that they are for eating not just as pets!
There son't seem to be outdoor area requirements set out in the legislation. You mentioned 30*50 m in your other post but how many pigs were on that and was it plenty or just right?
Also need to double check land lady will be ok and that OH realises that they are for eating not just as pets!
There son't seem to be outdoor area requirements set out in the legislation. You mentioned 30*50 m in your other post but how many pigs were on that and was it plenty or just right?
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Thurston Garden
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There were 2 in that bit and it was just right. I think unless you have acres of land, any number of pigs will soon turn any size of ground into something resembling the Somme in the blink of an eye hehe.
I think one of Stoney's sows is in pig, so you have 8 weeks plus to get organised. (Assuming he will have a good litter and have some for sale!)
To be honest, we never had the holding number before the pigs came (neither did my Dad when he kept some) but we had both applied for them, so everything was fine.
Sorting out the fencing will take the longest and making/locating some sort of ark type shelter might take a little bit of effort too. The rest is easy!
I think one of Stoney's sows is in pig, so you have 8 weeks plus to get organised. (Assuming he will have a good litter and have some for sale!)
To be honest, we never had the holding number before the pigs came (neither did my Dad when he kept some) but we had both applied for them, so everything was fine.
Sorting out the fencing will take the longest and making/locating some sort of ark type shelter might take a little bit of effort too. The rest is easy!
Thurston Garden.
http://www.thurstongarden.wordpress.com
Greenbelt is a Tory Policy and the Labour Party intends to build on it. (John Prescott)
http://www.thurstongarden.wordpress.com
Greenbelt is a Tory Policy and the Labour Party intends to build on it. (John Prescott)
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Stonehead
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All of ours have now gone.
A few points.
The legislation appears straightforward but interpretation of the rules is variable. SEERAD does the legislation, the State Veterinary Service does the advice and some inspections, council animal welfare officers do most of the enforcement and the rest of the inspections.
Each of those groups has varying interpretations as to how the legislation should be implemented, how the paperwork should be completed, how the specifics of the various regulations should be applied (the SVS has told us one thing in relation to transporting weaners, the animal welfare officer something different) and so on. An SVS officer told me that until there have been a few court cases to set out case law, then the situation will remain like that!
We had an AWO inspection recently and while the animal side was well above what is expected, our paperwork was not done to Aberdeenshire Council's specification. Our paperwork had all the relevant details, was in proper books and all the forms were filed, but not in the way the council wanted.
Needless to say, other councils want the paperwork done in different ways while SEERAD's advice (which I had filed and followed) is different again. So I'm presently rewriting three year's worth of forms and entries so that I'll have two copies of everything - one for the council to see, one for SEERAD and the SVS to see.
I'd strongly recommend getting your parish holding number and pig herd number first. It can take six to eight weeks and while you can get away with not applying until after you have pigs, the animal welfare officer made it clear that he has a very dim view of the practice and has been at Thainstone Mart checking people who buy pigs from the rare breeds sale.
Also, getting your holding number is straightforward if your land has been in agricultural use at some point in the last 30 years or so as it will already have a number. But if you're converting land to agricultural use, then it will take longer to have a number assigned and you may also have to talk with your council about planning permission for a change of use. (And horse activities on the land are not generally regarded as agricultural!)
As for space, I'd say 15m by 15m is okay for a pair of weaners from 10 weeks to 22-24 weeks from late spring through to early autumn. But, and this is very important, you'd have to rest the land in the following year and reseed it. You'd also have to have land that is well-drained and not prone to poaching.
If you want to keep a pair of pigs every year, then you need to at least double that space, preferably dividing it in two and resting the halves alternately.
If you want to over-winter weaners for spring slaughter, then you need to double again and make sure there are dry areas for their hut and for them to walk on. You also need a much warmer, draught-free hut or arc.
Pigs are intensive animals to have - even when kept outside as free-range animals. They need even more frequent checks than sheep or cattle, they're very sociable and appreciate human contact all the more when there are only two of them, and they can do a lot of damage in a very short space of time (which is one of the reasons you check them often).
Pigs drink a lot of water, especially in hot weather, and you have to ensure it is always available - don't just assume a trough with pipe feed is working. Check it at least twice a day as pigs will knock the pipes lose.
If you don't have water to your troughs, then you're going to be carry a lot of water. We don't have piped water to all our troughs so we carry 30 gallons of water out to the pigs at least three times a day. That's 90 gallons of water in two three-gallon buckets, up hill, in all weathers, through mud and snow.
Similarly, pigs should be fed at least twice a day as well as having grazing. It's much healthier and more efficient for them to have some feed passing through their system all day than to have them fill up in one go and overwhelm their digestive system, then having nothing in it for the rest of the day. (Weaners up to 14 weeks or so can be fed ad lib - just keep the feed trough full. After that though, it's best to restrict their intake or they'll get fat.)
Shade is very important in hot weather, as is a damp spot for a wallow.
Fencing needn't take too long IF you already have reasonable stock fences and/or dykes. Pigs will pull these apart fairly quickly, but what you do is run a couple of strands of temporary electric fence inside the existing fence or dyke. That gives you a double layer of security.
If you don't have good fences, then you need to erect strong, permanent fencing and include a couple of lines of electric in that. If you have access to a tractor and post knocker, it can be done fairly quickly although a professional job still takes time.
If, like us, you do everything manually then prepare yourself for years of hard slog! We started with one pen of 20m by 20m, then expanded from there, replacing boundary fences, adding more pens, adding temporary pens and so on. Strainer posts go into hand-dug holes 36in deep (crowbar and shovel), stobs have preliminary holes made with a crowbar and are then knocked in with a maul and hand post-knocker.
And finally, if I was going to recommend one book to would-be pig keepers, it would be Carol Harris's A Guide to Traditional Pig Keeping. I was given this recently and highly recommend it.
PS And a word to anyone considering pig keeping. Before calling breeders like us, please, please think it all through first, check with your spouse/other half/partner first, consider how you're going to set everything up, and have everything sorted.
I'm getting extremely irritated at spending an hour on the phone talking people through pigs and ours in particular, then spending another hour showing them around, then getting an agreement to buy a pair of weaners and then suddenly discover the buyer has disappeared into thin air, had second thoughts because their husband/wife has come home, decided they want to pay less because they've seen some cruddy crossbreed for a fiver in the local paper etc.
And if one more person dreamily says they want pigs like Gordon Ramsay's....
A few points.
The legislation appears straightforward but interpretation of the rules is variable. SEERAD does the legislation, the State Veterinary Service does the advice and some inspections, council animal welfare officers do most of the enforcement and the rest of the inspections.
Each of those groups has varying interpretations as to how the legislation should be implemented, how the paperwork should be completed, how the specifics of the various regulations should be applied (the SVS has told us one thing in relation to transporting weaners, the animal welfare officer something different) and so on. An SVS officer told me that until there have been a few court cases to set out case law, then the situation will remain like that!
We had an AWO inspection recently and while the animal side was well above what is expected, our paperwork was not done to Aberdeenshire Council's specification. Our paperwork had all the relevant details, was in proper books and all the forms were filed, but not in the way the council wanted.
Needless to say, other councils want the paperwork done in different ways while SEERAD's advice (which I had filed and followed) is different again. So I'm presently rewriting three year's worth of forms and entries so that I'll have two copies of everything - one for the council to see, one for SEERAD and the SVS to see.
I'd strongly recommend getting your parish holding number and pig herd number first. It can take six to eight weeks and while you can get away with not applying until after you have pigs, the animal welfare officer made it clear that he has a very dim view of the practice and has been at Thainstone Mart checking people who buy pigs from the rare breeds sale.
Also, getting your holding number is straightforward if your land has been in agricultural use at some point in the last 30 years or so as it will already have a number. But if you're converting land to agricultural use, then it will take longer to have a number assigned and you may also have to talk with your council about planning permission for a change of use. (And horse activities on the land are not generally regarded as agricultural!)
As for space, I'd say 15m by 15m is okay for a pair of weaners from 10 weeks to 22-24 weeks from late spring through to early autumn. But, and this is very important, you'd have to rest the land in the following year and reseed it. You'd also have to have land that is well-drained and not prone to poaching.
If you want to keep a pair of pigs every year, then you need to at least double that space, preferably dividing it in two and resting the halves alternately.
If you want to over-winter weaners for spring slaughter, then you need to double again and make sure there are dry areas for their hut and for them to walk on. You also need a much warmer, draught-free hut or arc.
Pigs are intensive animals to have - even when kept outside as free-range animals. They need even more frequent checks than sheep or cattle, they're very sociable and appreciate human contact all the more when there are only two of them, and they can do a lot of damage in a very short space of time (which is one of the reasons you check them often).
Pigs drink a lot of water, especially in hot weather, and you have to ensure it is always available - don't just assume a trough with pipe feed is working. Check it at least twice a day as pigs will knock the pipes lose.
If you don't have water to your troughs, then you're going to be carry a lot of water. We don't have piped water to all our troughs so we carry 30 gallons of water out to the pigs at least three times a day. That's 90 gallons of water in two three-gallon buckets, up hill, in all weathers, through mud and snow.
Similarly, pigs should be fed at least twice a day as well as having grazing. It's much healthier and more efficient for them to have some feed passing through their system all day than to have them fill up in one go and overwhelm their digestive system, then having nothing in it for the rest of the day. (Weaners up to 14 weeks or so can be fed ad lib - just keep the feed trough full. After that though, it's best to restrict their intake or they'll get fat.)
Shade is very important in hot weather, as is a damp spot for a wallow.
Fencing needn't take too long IF you already have reasonable stock fences and/or dykes. Pigs will pull these apart fairly quickly, but what you do is run a couple of strands of temporary electric fence inside the existing fence or dyke. That gives you a double layer of security.
If you don't have good fences, then you need to erect strong, permanent fencing and include a couple of lines of electric in that. If you have access to a tractor and post knocker, it can be done fairly quickly although a professional job still takes time.
If, like us, you do everything manually then prepare yourself for years of hard slog! We started with one pen of 20m by 20m, then expanded from there, replacing boundary fences, adding more pens, adding temporary pens and so on. Strainer posts go into hand-dug holes 36in deep (crowbar and shovel), stobs have preliminary holes made with a crowbar and are then knocked in with a maul and hand post-knocker.
And finally, if I was going to recommend one book to would-be pig keepers, it would be Carol Harris's A Guide to Traditional Pig Keeping. I was given this recently and highly recommend it.
PS And a word to anyone considering pig keeping. Before calling breeders like us, please, please think it all through first, check with your spouse/other half/partner first, consider how you're going to set everything up, and have everything sorted.
I'm getting extremely irritated at spending an hour on the phone talking people through pigs and ours in particular, then spending another hour showing them around, then getting an agreement to buy a pair of weaners and then suddenly discover the buyer has disappeared into thin air, had second thoughts because their husband/wife has come home, decided they want to pay less because they've seen some cruddy crossbreed for a fiver in the local paper etc.
And if one more person dreamily says they want pigs like Gordon Ramsay's....
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Thurston Garden
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I know you have tons of bother with customers disappearing into the ether and sympathise. I have also read of your issues with the AWO and the differing interpretations of the legislation. Although we buy rather than sell, and therefore have not had any disappearing customers, we have had zero issues in 3 years with the legislation, and that includes transporting pigs over the border into Englishland.
We got our holding number within a couple of weeks without any issues from planning. As did my Dad with a different Council planning office). The AWO visited here within the first couple of months and was completely happy, and totally supportive. My Dad has never seen his....
Both Elaine and my Dad have had trouble free experiences (save those for farming in general with Elaine) and they are both in the Borders. We are in neighbouring East Lothian and have moved pigs between the districts on a good few occasions now, all without issue.
Perhaps it's Aberdeenshire officials that have trouble with the legislation, and as Cassie is in Aberdeenshire, she would therefore do well to follow your guide and not be put off by it. From our experience though it is not as difficult as it may sound.
We got our holding number within a couple of weeks without any issues from planning. As did my Dad with a different Council planning office). The AWO visited here within the first couple of months and was completely happy, and totally supportive. My Dad has never seen his....
Both Elaine and my Dad have had trouble free experiences (save those for farming in general with Elaine) and they are both in the Borders. We are in neighbouring East Lothian and have moved pigs between the districts on a good few occasions now, all without issue.
Perhaps it's Aberdeenshire officials that have trouble with the legislation, and as Cassie is in Aberdeenshire, she would therefore do well to follow your guide and not be put off by it. From our experience though it is not as difficult as it may sound.
Thurston Garden.
http://www.thurstongarden.wordpress.com
Greenbelt is a Tory Policy and the Labour Party intends to build on it. (John Prescott)
http://www.thurstongarden.wordpress.com
Greenbelt is a Tory Policy and the Labour Party intends to build on it. (John Prescott)
Thankyou both very much. I'm very much at the initial "I'd like some pigs but have no idea about the work" stage and would not dream of wasting anyones time before I have things more in order.
Stonehead thankyou very much for the detailed inforamtion and reading adice. That (and other reading) and possibly a short course will keep me occupied for now!
Stonehead thankyou very much for the detailed inforamtion and reading adice. That (and other reading) and possibly a short course will keep me occupied for now!
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Stonehead
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If you'd like to come and have look, PM me. We don't mind visitors, really! (It's just the timewasting fantasists and the walkers/cyclists who insist on feeding pigs that annoy us.)Cassiepod wrote:Thankyou both very much. I'm very much at the initial "I'd like some pigs but have no idea about the work" stage and would not dream of wasting anyones time before I have things more in order.
Stonehead thankyou very much for the detailed inforamtion and reading adice. That (and other reading) and possibly a short course will keep me occupied for now!
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Stonehead
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I think Camillitech has experienced a bit of a faff with pig paperwork - three different ways of doing it as he got pigs from three different council areas. Hopefully he'll pop in and set the record straight if I have it wrong.Thurston Garden wrote:Perhaps it's Aberdeenshire officials that have trouble with the legislation, and as Cassie is in Aberdeenshire, she would therefore do well to follow your guide and not be put off by it. From our experience though it is not as difficult as it may sound.
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Stonehead
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The farmer across the road has never seen one (nor a SEERAD official) in at least 50 years of farming nor had his father before him. He was vastly amused that we'd had an inspection - especially as he thinks our livestock is extremely well looked after.Thurston Garden wrote:The AWO visited here within the first couple of months and was completely happy, and totally supportive. My Dad has never seen his....
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camillitech
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Stonehead wrote:I think Camillitech has experienced a bit of a faff with pig paperwork - three different ways of doing it as he got pigs from three different council areas. Hopefully he'll pop in and set the record straight if I have it wrong.Thurston Garden wrote:Perhaps it's Aberdeenshire officials that have trouble with the legislation, and as Cassie is in Aberdeenshire, she would therefore do well to follow your guide and not be put off by it. From our experience though it is not as difficult as it may sound.
think you've got it pretty well covered stoney. the paper work is straight forward though open to different interpretations however if you keep copies of everything and good records in my experience the various bodies involved are sympathetic and helpful. be careful cassiepod pigs are addictive
p.s. stoney i hear harrys poorly
sounds like release bearing to me please bear in mind when reading this post that i'm a taurus so prone to talking bull.
http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/
http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/
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camillitech
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Stonehead wrote:We must stop hanging around the same dodgy places!camillitech wrote:p.s. stoney i hear harrys poorly
aye, full of red necks and petrolheads
please bear in mind when reading this post that i'm a taurus so prone to talking bull.
http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/
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