B&Q Complete weed killer?

[persephone]

I have admitted defeat and will be using glyphosate to give me a kick start clearing my new allotment so I've been to B&Q (might be a UK only shop) to get some Roundup. I spotted the own brand version and asked if it was the same thing - they said yes but I don't quite trust them!

The front of the pack says it contains 96g/l (9.6% w/w) glyphosate as a soluble concentrate and the back says it contains 27g/l (2.7% w/w) tallow alkylamine ethoxylate.

I found a couple of websites that seem to say it's OK but they don't mention veggies so I want to double check - should I use this or ask for a refund?

TIA!

[matty]

Depends. Have you read Silent Spring by Rachel Carson? Why don't you Google it before you poison yourself...

[the.fee.fairy]

If you can use it on a part that you're going to grow non-edibles, then go for it.

Otherwise, remember that a lot of commercial veg growers use all manner of weedkiller/insecticide/pesticide/herbicides on their produce, adn they haven't killed anyone yet.

I resorted to round up last year to get rid of some bindweed, but i cheated - i poured it over the neighbour's fence at the heart of the bindweed...

[red]

I resorted to round up last year to get rid of some bindweed, but i cheated - i poured it over the neighbour's fence at the heart of the bindweed...

wonder if that would work on next door's 90 ft leylandii.. our garden is in shade by 430.....

[ohareward]

If you go to this site, it gives the lowdown on Roundup.

http://www.pestproducts.com/roundup_herbicide.htm

Robin

[catalyst]

Otherwise, remember that a lot of commercial veg growers use all manner of weedkiller/insecticide/pesticide/herbicides on their produce, adn they haven't killed anyone yet.

no?

[red]

I dont think I would use it, personally, as part of the reason for growing veg myself is to have them without the extra chemicals.
However, as already said - you have to balance this against the veg quality you are currently buying.

as for whether the product is officially safe to use in a veg growing place.. perhaps you could email/phone the manufacturer? bound to be on the label somewhere.

[catalyst]

best way to 'crack' a new bit of land is to buy in a crate of beer, and invite all your friends and family over for a digging/weeding party.

the reasons against roundup etc, isnt just because its a nasty chemical, but also because you are financially supporting very nasty companies, industries.
and what about all the wildlife you'll be harming, including all the bugs that make soil useful.

would you use the stuff if your water supply came from that land?

[the.fee.fairy]

Otherwise, remember that a lot of commercial veg growers use all manner of weedkiller/insecticide/pesticide/herbicides on their produce, adn they haven't killed anyone yet.

no?

I must have missed the article about 'Vegetarian killed by eating non-organic vegetables'.

[Cassiepod]

Biocides and pesticides in Europe are covered by the biocidal product directive (BPD) enacted through the biocidal products regulation in the UK. These pieces of legislation require that a degree of toxicity testing AND risk assessment are carried out by the manufacturers who are placing these products on the market. They are clearly toxic to living things. But the dose, potential for exposure and route of exposure must be taken into account as with all these things.

Specifically on this instance Glyphosate is seen as the pesticide of choice because of it's manner of action and that it has less acute toxicty to mammals and lack of mobility in a soil environment (http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/actives/glyphosa.htm). The tallow alkyl amine ethoxylate is a surface active material added to the weedkiller to improve it action at the surface. This material will also be toxic but through a different action and is added to improve the adhesion of the glyphosate to the weeds.

If you have to use glyphosate, your best action would be to find a glyphosate without any added surfactants and use it in the very best conditions (dry still etc) to ensure you have good adhesion to the plant without adding further nasties to the system.

This is an incomplete discussion of the risks and their assessment but hopefully it will help you on your way. In my mind chemicals should be a last resort in the garden, in healthcare, in cleanng and in everything but I would also add that just because something in naturally occurring (not man made) DOES NOT mean that it is environmentally benign. A point that is very often overlooked in irrational sensationalistion of environmental issues. (I may rant further on this subject in another place)

Have you tried carpet/light exclusion?

[catalyst]

1000s of farmers every year are admitted to hospital for pesticide poisoning - but you dont see much of that in the newspapers either.

on top of that, apparently one in four uk citizens regard themselves as having a chronic illness. ok, there are a lot of factors involved in this, but i dont think it is likely that none of this is down to chemicals in the food.

you know it must be very bad when the government advises people to peel carrots before eating them.

[Cassiepod]

1000s of farmers every year are admitted to hospital for pesticide poisoning - but you dont see much of that in the newspapers either.

They should have better training and understanding of the risks invovled in handling pesticides - they are TOXIC that is the point of them. Too often you see instances where people decide that wearing correct pretective equipment (PPE) is for wusses/pussies/pick your favourite. (Please note I am not blaming the farmers in these instances but want to use this example to further highlight the potential risks and counter measures for handling chemicals)

Chemicals should be avoided where possible and handled with care when deemed necessary.

The glyphosate bottle will have instructions on it about the PPE to wear including safety googles, gloves, suitable clothing which covers your body and possibly consider using a mask/respirator. These instructions are not there for the company's benefit but for the users please make sure you follow them. If you want further advice contact the company - details on the bottle or go to your local PPE stockist and discuss it. Health and safety is everyones responsiblity, it is not sufficient to say the chemicals companies are nasty if you buy and use the stuff you have responsiblities too.

Please also bear this in mind when using household 'chemicals' - toilet bleach, washing up liquid (even 'green' ones), antifreeze for the car, screenwash for the car, rubbing alcohol, methylated spirits they all have labelling to help the user. If you ever feel you don't understand the labelling ask an expert who will always be willing to help.

[red]

1000s of farmers every year are admitted to hospital for pesticide poisoning - but you dont see much of that in the newspapers either.

actually - its quite frequently reported around here.. being a farming area - but the major problem is organo phosphates (sp?) which were compulsory in things like sheep dip. it was the law up until recently that you had to dip your sheep using OPs, and the dangers to human health showed themselves later - I personally know 2 sufferers.. one ran the mobile sheep dip, another was a sheep shearer.

However, while it is true that 100s of farmers have ongoing medical problems due to pesticides.. they are not necessarily the same pesticides that are being discussed by the OP

[Wombat]

However, while it is true that 100s of farmers have ongoing medical problems due to pesticides.. they are not necessarily the same pesticides that are being discussed by the OP

Good point Red.

chemicals isn't chemicals. They are all different and have their own hazards and advantages attached to them. I garden organically as much as I can but there are times when you wonder. Take for instance my wormicide that occurred last week due to worming stuff in the horse poo. I've been using that sort of horse poo for years and didn't realise that this would be an issue.

In the end we can only do what we can do and everyone has to make their own decision on how far they will go.

Nev

[Millymollymandy]

Good point Nev. I have had far fewer worms in my compost since putting in chook and horse poo than before when it was just kitchen and garden waste.

It took a while to realise not to put in the chook poo after I'd wormed them but I've never thought to ask horse owners when they last wormed their horses before taking their poo to compost.

As for the chemicals, I grow veg organically but my veg garden is right next to, and slightly downhill from, a field which rotates between wheat, maize, and grass for grazing or hay, and is certainly sprayed with 'something', as I've witnessed it on many occasions. So just how safe and organic are my veg?