LCBP2

[ajstone]

Hi Everyone,
this is my first posting on this forum, hope its not my last.

the photo posted by martin was taken by me on the 20th of feb this year he asked if he could use it here.

The turbine is a windsave it has produced £2.66p of power since being installed in December i have photo's showing kwh of 14.8. the owners are waiting for the software to be upgraded in April and have been assured it will then perform better. they were not told that they would not get any pay back, just the opposite, they were told it would quickly pay for itself. the site is surrounded by trees on all sides so the software will need to be really clever.

they have told B&Q that if it does'nt do what they were told it would after the upgrade they want their money back as its not fit for purpose.

tony

[CG]

ajstone,

Please tell those people to start making their claim for a refund, they are being conned. First it's not new software but a chainsaw they need to cut those trees down, then they need another story on their bungalow, then they need almost any wind turbine other than a Windsave, and even then it still won't pay for itself. This software clain is a stalling ploy by the management of Windsave, a more unscrupilous lot would be hard to find.

Other customers of Windsave are being told the same thing, but how long does is take to write a bit of software, this is not Windows we are talking about, it's Windsave.

No small turbine in production is controlled by software, so why does Windsave have to have it in their product?

[Annpan]

Hi there, I am the 'friend in south lansrkshire ' that Martin helped out with contact details. I just stumbled across this thread and would like to make a few things clear from a 'consumerist' point of view.

I hate wasting money (part of my reason for being on 'ish') I don't mind initial outlay but I want good value. I would like grants to work for me but I have realised that they probably won't and it looks like a waste of time I HATE salesmen trying to sell me that 'chocolate teapot' but even worse are the ones that say "every one else is trying to sell you a chocolate teapot, but not me"

What I am actually looking for is a system that works for me and my family, fairly hassel free and installed by reputable guys who are resposible enough to take ownership of their mistakes. I have a bit of knowledge of plumbing, DIY, physics and electronics so I am perhaps in a better position that a lot of potential customers. However I have been looking around the internet for information on different brand and installers and not only is the information hard to come by it is mostly amaturish and 'bitty' I have found no independent retailers or installers that say this is the best on the market, I have found alot of information on other peoples chocolate teapots.

The reason I am waffeling on a bit is to try and explain to all of you who know a bit about the industry that us little consumer types who are trying our damdest don't know who to believe, who is genuine and who is selling us chocolate teapots (or chocolate fireguards) I saw windsave and solar panels in B + Q and OH was seriously tempted "no" I said "Martin say's not to " - "yeah but if it's B+Q they will be resposible for fitting it and you have some comeback if it all fails " (can't help thinking he's got a point)

I hope you see the quandry we are in, and I can see many others like us, who think they are doing the right thing and going about it the right way, only to discover 5 years down the line that they are still out of pocket and they may never trust renewables again.

My plan is to shop around and pick the best that I can. Itfeels like a bit of a lottery and really shouldn't.

[Ted]

No small turbine in production is controlled by software, so why does Windsave have to have it in their product?

I have assumed that the "software upgrade" is nothing more than changing some of the control parameters in the inverter. Something that can be tweaked in a few seconds with my SMA Windy Boys.

Where's Nathan when you need him...

[Wombat]

Hey Annpan,

Have you considered DIY on the wind generator?

Nev

[revdode]

My plan is to shop around and pick the best that I can. Itfeels like a bit of a lottery and really shouldn't.

I know what you mean. There are a lot of people jumping onto the renewable bandwagon, finding a supplier you can trust isn't easy. I guess the best solution, as with most trades is go with word of mouth, although make sure that the experience of the installer is relevant.

Could i ask where you intend to site your turbine?

The reason is simple, there is a reasonable consensus that roofline or just above turbines based on current technology will not produce a decent output. If you can't put the turbine on a pole located out of turbulence (above or away from trees, buildings etc.) then which turbine you pick isn't really that important.

If you still want one for that application you have two basic paths to follow. Either go for the cheapest offer, none of them will realistically repay the cost of purchase and installation. Or find one which is maintainable, all major components are replaceable (particularly bearings and mounts as these will take a hammering) - this will be a far more expensive option but will at least have a chance of recovering the energy taken to manufacture the thing.

I don't directly work in the renewables industry. Although I have worked for companies supplying parts to one of the companies based in Scotland which designs, manufactures and sells turbines. My opinions are based on basic mechanical engineering knowledge (from my day job), and a lot of reading.

When I first heard about windsave I was quite enthusiastic. Studying the problem in greater detail I realised that there are fundamental problems with their concept, not necessarily the product. I'm not saying that urban domestic small scale wind is a non starter, just that there are no horizontal axis wind turbines that offer a solution for this problem at the moment and I can't see any solutions which would solve what is a basically mechanical problem. If someone cracks this problem it will probably be with something novel.

In defence of Nathan(?) I'm sure there are some sites where windsave will get as close to their claimed output as many other small scale renewables suppliers get to theirs. I lived in Shetland on top of hill for a number of years, in a small house sunk into the contours of the hill, that would probably do it. The problem is it's being sold as a mass market solution, and IMHO there just isn't a viable mass market for the product.

[CG]

Ted,

Nathan is probably busy treating his bruised arse, which he gets kicked every time he pops up on a forum trying to defend the indefensible Windsave.

I think the need for software on the Windsave turbine is because of the furling or lack of it (I still have never been told by anyone on any site I have posted on if the Windsave does or doesn't furl, excluding Nathan's promise of the phantom video).

I think the Windsave has no effective form of furling and controls the wind energy imput by braking. Can you imagine driving a car with no accelerator just a brake? Well, I think that it how the Windsave works. It has no form of reliable decelerator, and the brake is continually going on and off. The rated windspeed for the turbine is 12.5m/s, but it cuts out at 14m/s, just 1.5m/s of the most useful energy imput. Perhaps Windsave engineers (does the company have any?) are trying to raise the upper limit to give a greater energy imput window. But I doubt this; I truly think this is a stalling tactic by the decietful Windsave management. The Windsave turbine is fundamentally flawed in its design and nothing will change that. Even if it were sited on the top of mount Everest it would not generate much electricity because of its low cut off wind speed; most of the time the brake would be on.

One other thing; I do wish people would stop implying that improved wind turbine technology will solve the problem with rooftop turbines. It is a problem of energy supply not energy convertion. There is just not enough wind at rooftop level in urban areas to make them worth while. one would not imply the an improvement in technology would allow water wheels to be used in the desert, or solar panels to work in a coal celler

[CG]

The Warwick Trials have finally got a Windsave turbine to test. There is by far the most impressive photo of a Windsave turbine in action that I have seen on their site, it is really spinning up a storm.

The report says that from Dec. 18th last year until Mar.3rd this year it has generated 10 kilowatt hours; that's about £1.10 worth of electricity in two and a half of the most windy months - oh dear. Nathaaaaann!!!!!!

[nathanbriggs]

The Warwick Trials have finally got a Windsave turbine to test. There is by far the most impressive photo of a Windsave turbine in action that I have seen on their site, it is really spinning up a storm.

The report says that from Dec. 18th last year until Mar.3rd this year it has generated 10 kilowatt hours; that's about £1.10 worth of electricity in two and a half of the most windy months - oh dear. Nathaaaaann!!!!!!

Yes and the availability has been virtually zero, in other words it has spent a lot of that time switched off, but as I'm sure any one against rooftop wind turbines will agree their site is next to useless - their "independent trial" is designed to demonstrate there is no available wind power above an urban rooftop - since they have designed their trial to prove that - they definitely will prove it.

[revdode]

One other thing; I do wish people would stop implying that improved wind turbine technology will solve the problem with rooftop turbines. It is a problem of energy supply not energy convertion. There is just not enough wind at rooftop level in urban areas to make them worth while.

There seems to have been enough energy in our urban area this winter to flatten a dozen or so TV ariels, strip a lot of slates, flashing adn ridging and to remove a couple of chimney caps.

one would not imply the an improvement in technology would allow water wheels to be used in the desert, or solar panels to work in a coal celler

Thats the type of argument I'd expect from someone trying to sell me something:) No energy is not the same as low energy, the most obvious problem in the urban areas I've lived in has been frequent or constant changes in wind direction. This is pretty useless for HAWT designs, I don't discount someone coming with with a VAWT design that may overcome this.

[nathanbriggs]

Nathan is probably busy treating his bruised arse, which he gets kicked every time he pops up on a forum trying to defend the indefensible Windsave.

I don't bruise easily - however my new computer arrived and I spent a lot of time transferring all my personal settings over and lost my selfsufficientish password - I also don't spend all my time browsing these forums if I seem unresponsive I'm sorry try pm'ing or emailing me.

I think the need for software on the Windsave turbine is because of the furling or lack of it (I still have never been told by anyone on any site I have posted on if the Windsave does or doesn't furl, excluding Nathan's promise of the phantom video).

Windsave does furl, which I have said before on this site although I don't remember where

I think the Windsave has no effective form of furling and controls the wind energy input by braking. Can you imagine driving a car with no accelerator just a brake? Well, I think that it how the Windsave works. It has no form of reliable decelerator, and the brake is continually going on and off. The rated windspeed for the turbine is 12.5m/s, but it cuts out at 14m/s, just 1.5m/s of the most useful energy imput. Perhaps Windsave engineers (does the company have any?) are trying to raise the upper limit to give a greater energy imput window.

Furling is very effective thank you, as is braking can you imagine driving a car with no brakes and just a big cushion on the front? Anyone who knows anything about it knows that the "rated wind speed" is a headline and not relevant in any other context but to grab attention. And the "cutoff speed" is neither 14m/s nor strictly speaking any one "speed" any way, its more about how fast and prolonged a gust of wind is. e.g. a short sharp burst of 16m/s might hit brake but a prolonged slow rise to 20m/s won't.

One other thing; I do wish people would stop implying that improved wind turbine technology will solve the problem with rooftop turbines. It is a problem of energy supply not energy convertion.

On this we entirely agree, I am not saying Windsave is the pinnacle of energy conversion, but it certainly approaches the limits of the physics under good conditions, in other words somebody may make a product that captures 10% more of the energy and converts it at 5% more efficiency, but it would take a major change in our understanding of the laws of physics to make a step change in output.

There is just not enough wind at rooftop level in urban areas to make them worth while.

Here we somewhat agree, my argument would be that some rooftops are better than others and some sites more "urban" than others the old " your mileage may vary" problem. Interesting though do you CG entertain roof top as viable in rural areas???

[nathanbriggs]

Nathan

It's amazing that when an ordinary buyer with an unsuitable site insists on having a turbine Windsave goes ahead, but when it is the chap from newsnight who is going to give the turbine a very public independent test, he is told that his property is unsuitable and he can't have one.

When an ordinary buyer pays up front and insists on install against advice we install. I am not going to go into the ethics of that not my job. But Windsave is a commercial customer and I would argue that the effects of microgeneration fitted to a home go far beyond its payback. Ethical man was offered a free turbine to support his programme, we offered to fit it on any site we both thought would be suitable, but he only wanted to fit it on his home. The reason why it turned out is that he had already had a turbine fitted which had produced no power and he wanted to expose Windsave as a con. Justin is a nice guy, but he is basically a journalist and fat juicy headlines are what he is interested in because it garners public attention to his programme - this is obvious by the stories he posted after he was turned down by Windsave. i.e. NOT "what an ethical company" but "clearly EVERYONE else shouldn't have a turbine" - becasue my house in the middle of London surrounded by higher buildings is typical (in very small print)

[nathanbriggs]

PS just for the new people - I am affiliated with Windsave, I helped design the system and work for them on a consultancy basis. Make your own decision if I am impartial

[CG]

Nathan,

Do you never get tired of being a windslave to Windsave? The turbine does not furl, at least the ones on B&Q don't. The turbines in Windsave's video don't, and you haven't produced the video that you claimed existed in the chocolate teapots topic. The only film I have seen of a Windsave's tail moving is on Yahoo by a bloke named Clive, and he is waiting for this famous software update so he can start producing, what he thinks will be useful amounts of electricity.

The turbine cuts out at 14m/s, it says so in Windsave's own blurb given away at B&Q. And while on the subject can you tell us how the turbine's brake works, and the furling system that you claim is on the system?

Where are the independent trials for Windsave and why in your opinion is everybody's attempt to get indepentent data for this turbine some sort of dreadful plot to smear its good name.

Where are the houses that are generating 500kh per year let alone 2000kh per year claimed possible by Windsave on their site?
Windsave has had four years to test this turbine, so where's the lucky customers who are getting the output claimed by Windsave for their turbine?

Revdode,

You cannot use the occassional destruction of property in storms as proof of sufficient energy to make urban rooftop turbines worthwhile. To do that would mean there would be no tiles on any roofs in the country.

[CG]

There is a picture of a Windsave turbine on the moneysavingexpert forum that I asked for. It's about the best house siting I have seen for this turbine, but if you read what it's delivering and the average windspeed for the area you will be able to see how hard it is to save money with this machine.

I can't give a link, but if you google moneysavingexpert page 10 turbine you will find it.