who nicked the "d"?

[cherry]

i wish i still had pointy bits, but got into furniture removal and chest has moved down to draws,

speaking of which me zucchini's are massive

[Muddypause]

what equality?
If you and I toddle off to a strip show, we're sexist pigs - if women do it, it's just a bit of fun!

Yes indeed - Forty years of feminism just so women can go to strip shows...<sigh>

We're equal, so how come there's such a divisive programme as "woman's hour?"

In what way divisive? How are you being oppressed by it? You still seem to be missing the point that distinguishes 'equality' from 'sameness'. If there is a programme about motoring, does this victimise walkers? Equality means having diversity precisely because we are not all the same...

How come we're equal until there's a flat tyre on a rainy night?, or a caravan loo that needs emptying?

...it does not mean we all have to do the same things, have the same capabilities, strengths, aspirations and proclivities.

Which brings us back to the fact that the word "actress" is eminently particular, accurate, and succinct - it denotes in one simple word what I wish to convey

Well yes, we all know what it means. That doesn't make it the most appropriate word to use. I'm suggesting it may convey more than you intend it to.

I want to cast the role of Barbara Good, I therefore want an actress, not a "female actor", which is clumsy, ugly, imprecise, and divisive because "actor" is understood as a bloke what acts...

Does 'plumber' mean a bloke who plumbs? Does 'electrician' mean a bloke who electrifies? Do you think that all chefs are male? That's quite an assumption.

...you have to add "female or lady" to actually get your message over

Whereas, it is only due to your assumption that you wouldn't have to add 'male' when autitioning for Tom Good. To say that "..."actor" is understood as a bloke..." is not correct.

If you were auditioning people for the role of Barbara Good, you would have to include quite a few other adjectives to describe the part other than simply whether it was a female role. 'Female' is legitimately one of the attributes of the part, so is 'English speaking', so is 'young'; maybe 'angloactressette' would be good if you're simply trying to keep the word-count down? I can't see how 'Young, female, English speaking actor' is inappropriate; it represents accurately and without prejudice the requirements of the role.

Personally, I find the word 'actress' a rather harsh bowlerisation. My conjecture is that it may originally have been an imposed word, made up to fit a political requirement. Does 'teacheress' sit well with you? Lawyeress? Bank Manageress?

...the new "pc" version!

Ah yes; the current popular term of abuse. It's hard to take the term as a seriously considered comment. Equal rights are fundamental to social justice, and Britain has a worthy history of opposing inequality going back hundreds of years. Would you describe the Levellers or the Diggers as a bit pc? Would you so casually dismiss the Tolpuddle Martyrs in this way? Would you reduce the Suffragette's call for equal franchise simply as pc?

[Martin]

for goodness sake! - this is downright SILLY!
Actor means male person who acts, actress means female who acts - no more, no less!
The delightful Miss Kendall was an actress, it was what I called her, she was happy to ber known as one - I detect no sign of implied sexual violence or whatever codswallop has been dreamed up by a bunch of politically correct ninnies........
I have no intention whatsoever of jettisoning perfectly good, and totally inoffensive words at the behest of political correctness - there are far too many groups of people being goaded into "being offended" by a bunch of sad anal retentives - get a life!
Probably, if I wait a year or two, they'll "embrace the word", and like "queer and poof", it will again be acceptable to refer to actresses!
I have this nightmare vision of a time shortly coming, whereby to avoid
the attentions of the "thought police", I have to download, and inwardly digest the "proscribed words" list every day before venturing forth, lest I offend someone!

[red]

for goodness sake! - this is downright SILLY!
Actor means male person who acts, actress means female who acts - no more, no less!

now you are just not listening. or is that reading. pay attention:

'actor' is a person who acts. 'actress' is a person who acts who is also female. the fact that the second term specially tells you their gender is the offensive part - because there is no way to define the actor you are auditioning is male - i.e women have been particularly picked out for this 'honour' .... sigh... now whilst I agree there might be roles in which you particularly wanted a woman, as MP pointed out, you would want lots of other things for a particular role- for example you might have height, race, first language in mind, and none of those things are included in either title actor or actress. and yes before you ask, I do find saying 'male midwife' or 'male nurse' unnecessary and picking out their gender for a reason that is not relevent to their ability to do their job offensive.

I have no intention whatsoever of jettisoning perfectly good, and totally inoffensive words at the behest of political correctness - there are far too many groups of people being goaded into "being offended" by a bunch of sad anal retentives - get a life!

but that's the point - if the other party is offended by your comments shouldn't you show respect to them by not using the terms that offend
even if you disagree it's not about what you think - it's about showing respect for others

me? I am not religiious, but still I try not to blaspheme in front of those that are because I can still show respect for others even if I do not agree.


have you started this tangent to the original topic because you are embarrassed at not knowing how to spell longitude?

[Shirley]

Ladies and gentlemen.... or should I say... PEOPLE

I do agree that respect for other peoples feelings is of the utmost importance and I hope that we'll bear this in mind when replying to this thread.

Agree to disagree but let's not fall out over things :D

Oh... and you get search results when you look up either spelling of longitude

[Boots]

There are very clearly two trains on this track...

I think...Muddy is talking about social justice. Equality.

I think...Martin is referring to political correctness. Tyranny.

Never the twain shall meet.

[Martin]

I'm still wondering whether I should have used the word "ninny"
To my knowledge, it is a mildly rude description of someone who really isn't quite on this planet........but doubtless there'll be the thought police leaping out of the woodwork, and consigning me to the permanent outer darkness as the meaning has somehow changed..............(is it a contraction of "picaninni"?) - probably best to contract my vocabulary to the Sun's 700 words, and never utter another word in public again!

[Boots]

So ya wanna Pick a Ninni now... Really Martin, Can't ya pick on someone ya own size?

[Martin]

perhaps I should "mend my ways" - dismiss all words from my vocabulary that could possibly be construed as sexist, divisive etc.
Right, all relationship names will have to go for a start! - I shall henceforth no longer be a father and a son, but a "male parent", and an "offspring"..........
Auntie Jenny will be confused - she'll be "female uncle Jenny" - and my nephews and nieces will be male and female nephews!
It makes me wonder if they have this problem in la belle France - for some reason best known to them, they assign masculine or feminine to words.........and the Germans have three sexes of words!

[Boots]

Why don't you just start by apologising to Muddy?

[Martin]

apologise? - for staunchly defending my language from self-appointed censors? - on yer bike!

[cherry]

dear martin, please dont hide in the darkness of the politically correct world for u will only saint the blessed politicians that thought it up to take our minds off the fact that they have spent our pension fund.

also on ur bike has a double entendre meaning dyke so if u do get lost in this politically correct world that would make blessed saints of our pollies, do step gently

ps do ur own spell check im too lazy

[Muddypause]

Wooahh..! 'S Ok, Boots.

None of this needs an apology. I really haven't taken any of this as personal invective.

We're just disagreeing. That's allowed.

But ta, anyway.

[Muddypause]

for goodness sake! - this is downright SILLY!

Agreed. Though I have been to some pains to try and avoid being needlessly didactic. I like to think I have been trying to explain an alternative point of view about the reason a particular word exists. Unfortunately in this case, you don't seem too receptive to ideas at varience with your own.

I have also gone to some lengths to point out that I have not been considering anything in terms of pollitical correctness - as Boots points out, that is to do with tyranny, and is somethng I like to distance myself from. Unfortunately 'pc' has simply become a term of abuse that is now aimed at any political thought that someone disagrees with - in itself a form of tyranny!

Actor means male person who acts

That is simply not correct. Maybe you have not been aware of this, but that has never been the case. Trust me on this; I happen to know about it. 'Actor' has always been used by both sexes.

actress means female who acts

That much we can agree upon. But I have been suggesting that the only reason the word exists is because of a social injustice. This is not about political correctness, but about social history; it has nothing to do with anal retentiveness, or not having a life, or being inoffensive, but about an interest in the nature of our society, and why, for example, it represents a difference to American society. It was you, after all, who drew attention to this difference, somewhat pithily.

I suspect that the word 'actor' may itself be a fairly recent invention - who knows, maybe even imported from America. Orginally, in Britain at least, we would have called theatrical performers 'players' regardless of whether they were male or female. The Reformation banned women from the stage (or at least attempted to) - acting became an immoral persuit for a woman. I suggest that this may be where the need to distinguish an immoral woman from an actor first arose. Whether this is correct or not, the word is undobtedly demeaning - historically the word 'actress' was used to mean 'prostitute'; to describe a female actor as an actress was a way of calling her a floozie. You can bluster all you like against that, but it is simply the case. The whole point of the word is to discredit, rather than to describe the job.

It is my contention that this word is now redundant; that society no longer needs a word that represents a historical injustice and suggests that they are not real actors, in the same way that 'authoress' has recently become recognised as just an anomalous footnote in social history.

This is not a threat to anybody's freedoms; it doesn't mean you cannot hold your own opinions; it doesn't mean the word is banned; it doesn't affect your right to offend people (a right that I hold very dear to my own heart, by the way).

And just to make clear, in case others are getting worried - I'm not trying to stir up any personal animosity. Martin and I happen to disagree about something. But we also agree about much else, and I am quite sure that his heart is in approximately the right place. I have no ambition to produce bad feelings either here, or anywhere else on the forum.

[Martin]

- me too! - there's no malice whatsoever - we both enjoy a good argue!
(and long may it continue!)