who nicked the "d"?

[Muddypause]

in that case, I'll go and watch a program in color!
(I do get rather sick of Google and it's Americanisms - type in "programme", and it comes back "don't you mean "program" -no I don't!)

Well I guess if you are going to find the international nature of the internet a problem, then you will inevitably be increasingly unhappy here. But you could try using Google.co.uk rather than Google.com.

I find the mis-spelling facllity of Google quite useful - even in the UK 'program' and 'programme' are two different things which are frequently mixed up (a 'programme' is, for example, a feature on radio or TV; a 'program' is a computer application - this is legitimate even in the UK, and how I have always used the words).

But regarding your comments about 'actress' and 'lady', these are both words that have political and social implications.

The former is a made up word, that should properly not exist at all in a socially just world. I suspect it could be traced back to the English Reformation. Prior to this, it wouldn't have been an issue, but the Reformation meant that women were not allowed to be actors (remember that all Shakespear's female roles were played by men). In subsequently more enlightened times, when women were able to return to the stage, 'actress' (and the even worse, though fortunately almost obsolete, bowdlerisation of 'authoress'), were used to discredit them and suggest that they were not proper actors (or authors). The reason Americans seldom use such words is because they don't have our particular type of social dark ages.

Personaly, I see the use of such words almost as a form of disrespect; after all, it would be nonsense to talk of a plumberess, or a bus driveress unless you were somehow trying to belittle their ability to do the job based on their sex. Such words have no proper place in the language.

The word 'lady' seems more apparently distinct from, say, 'woman', in that it implies a supposed or assumed social status. To my mind, it is less significant than using 'actress', and is often used colloquially. But I pefer to use the word 'woman' to describe women of all social classes - 'lady' seems to hark back to forelock tugging days, yet, ironically, these days it seems not so much to impart respect rather than patronisation.

[Paddy's mum]

There are many perfectly proper words using the 'ess' ending to denote a female, which have no underlying derogatory meaning.

Actress, authoress, mistress, etc arose, as I understand it, simply as a spoken corruption of the Latin 'trix' or 'trice' which can still be found quite commonly and properly today in such words as executrice, testatrice, benefactress, among others.

It is something of a mystery that we don't say plumberess, doctoress or pilotess - but social change occurs all the time and language reflects this, hence the job title of male midwife.

My language pet hate is the corruption of the once wonderful word 'gay' and as for girls given that name .....!

[Martin]

it's the assumption of disrespect that gets up my nose!
Language is moving fast - I was brought up to believe that it was highly disrespectful to refer to a lady as a "woman"..........I was also taught they were the physically weaker sex, and as such, you always offered a lady a seat on the bus- you showed respect for her sex by doing so!
Being a loather of towns, I found myself on a packed tube train sometime in the 70's, and offered my seat to what I thought was a Lady - it shrieked at me that I was a chauvinistic pig, and to f*** OFF!.................
And then, I've gone for many years calling female people "love", purely as a term of endearment, friendliness, and deep respect.............and I still stand up when a lady enters the room.............
And then you get words that have a chameleon existence - according to a gay friend, it's ok to call him a "poof" or "queer" now!
So if I may, I'll carry on bumbling through life, opening doors, offering seats, and holding ladies in the highest respect!
As to "wimmin"................

[Muddypause]

Actress, authoress, mistress, etc arose, as I understand it, simply as a spoken corruption of the Latin 'trix' or 'trice'

That seems a perfectly plausible etymology. But...

It is something of a mystery that we don't say plumberess, doctoress or pilotess

...why ever would we use such words? 'Plumber' is a job description, not a gender attribution - the sex of the operative is irrelevant. A plumber does plumbing; we would never say a plumberess does plumberessing; it becomes meaningless. I can't see any merit in assigning gender-specific attributes to such a job unless you are deliberately trying to make an issue of it.

Surely the real mystery is why we assumed for so long that women were not able to do such things, and that all plumbers, doctors and pilots were inevitably male. Isn't that what has brought about such words?

...but social change occurs all the time and language reflects this, hence the job title of male midwife.

Do we still talk of 'male nurses', or are we able to deal with that concept simply as a 'nurse' now? And what has become of 'matron' - a word that can be entirely attributed to a gender role?

[Paddy's mum]

Martin - I couldn't agree more with your comment 'assumption of disrespect'.

My best friend - she who described herself as buxom enough to kick-start a jumbo jet! - once told me this little quip. It's as true today as it ever was: assume 'makes an ASS out of U and ME'.

You go right ahead standing when a lady enters the room, hold doors open for the elderly or disabled etc. Be an anachronism in your own time - and three hearty cheers for good old fashioned manners!

[Millymollymandy]

it's the assumption of disrespect that gets up my nose!
Language is moving fast - I was brought up to believe that it was highly disrespectful to refer to a lady as a "woman"..........I was also taught they were the physically weaker sex, and as such, you always offered a lady a seat on the bus- you showed respect for her sex by doing so!
Being a loather of towns, I found myself on a packed tube train sometime in the 70's, and offered my seat to what I thought was a Lady - it shrieked at me that I was a chauvinistic pig, and to f*** OFF!.................
And then, I've gone for many years calling female people "love", purely as a term of endearment, friendliness, and deep respect.............and I still stand up when a lady enters the room.............
And then you get words that have a chameleon existence - according to a gay friend, it's ok to call him a "poof" or "queer" now!
So if I may, I'll carry on bumbling through life, opening doors, offering seats, and holding ladies in the highest respect!
As to "wimmin"................

I wish more men were like you!

As for 'Doctoress', it exists in French speaking Switzerland (I don't know about in France). I think the word is stupid - I just call a doctor a doctor, regardless of their sex and regardless of their language!

[Millymollymandy]

And if you consider the word "longditudinal" - that "sounds right" - the shortened version just doesn't!

Now that absolutely does sound right, and the more I think about your missing D the more I think you are right and I must have come across that D somewhere in my dim and distant past!

[Boots]

Martin, dear Martin... Listen Love... Here sit down... *Pulls out a chair of my choice*... No, no, you sit your sweet cheeks right here Martin. We need to have a little chat.... *Pats Martin on head* ...Now, there's this little thing called equality dear. No, no, now is not the time for you to speak. Sssh.... Equality is different to kindness Marty Boy. Equality can't be considered a gift that men bestow on women, and it can't be confused with manners. It is not something we should have to beg for or fight for. It is the basic privilege we offer every human being - man, woman or child. It is why I opened the door and stood to greet you. I am pleased to see you, so I express that with a respectful greeting. It is not hard. It is not tricky. There is no duty....It is sponteneous and can only exist when there is mutual respect.... Words are often used to express our levels of respect.

What? You don't like me standing over you?.... But I like looking down at your grey hair dear. You're uncomfortable sitting?.... Oh, don't be so sensitive Marty Boy.... What?... Your name is Martin, you say? Oh come now Sweet Cheeks - you know I didn't mean to upset you. What on earth is wrong with you? Ever since you started working as a wind turbine distributoress you have not been yourself. Do you need a lie down, love? Here dear, have some Bex. Wind turbine distributoresses have been needing that for years.... Right, it's time for you to go busy yourself now Marty Boy, and I don't want you associating with those weird wimmen who confuse patriarchal duty with manners.... Do you open doors for children, Marty Boy? Well, best you start. Don't worry, if the weird wimmen ring, I will say your chained to the kitchen sink. I'm sure they'll understand.

You be good now love. *pats Martin on the buns* Oh Marty Boy... Did you forget to vaccuum this morning?...Make us a cuppa while your out there, will ya love? The kids might want the the kitchen soon. That's a good little equalist...Toddle off now... Yes, of course I'll get the door for you, dear.... Would you like me to carry those history books for you too Marty? They look a tad heavy... Must be the weight of all those wimmen who dared to ask for things like the right to ride horses, drive cars, learn to read and write, travel without chaperones, cut their hair, choose their clothes, choose their husbands, open a bank account, earn a living, own a home, run a business, vote, divorce, sue... you know... all that stuff that men have always had.

Probably worth a read.... love.

[Milims]

It seems to me that when refering to a trades person its ok simply to say Plumber, joiner, or electrician etc because its always assumed that they are male. However, should you ever come across a trades person of a different gender (like me) it is prefixed by the word "female" and ended with guffaws or expressions of surprise!!! For goodness sake society catch up!!!! Water, wood, electricity etc have no gender where as the people experiencing those who work with them seem to have a gender agenda!!!
I have been known to say to people, in places like the job centre, who refer to me as a "female electrican", "I don't refer to you as a male office clerk do I?"
Yes - the assumption that gender goes with choice of job really p****s me off!!! The thing is, it doesn't matter what gender you are so long as you do the job well and sod the title!!

Helen

[Martin]

equal? - the same? - since when? - I do not possess pointy bits in the chest area!
I instead celebrate the wonderful, delightful differences between the sexes.........and should I be walking past a building site upon which you are working, and you feel moved to show appreciation of my raw masculinity (with the faintest hint of distinguished grey at the temples) - please feel free to catcall, wolf-whistle, or pinch my bum!

[Paddy's mum]

As someone much wiser and quicker witted than me once said:-

Nobody will ever win the Battle of the Sexes because there is too much fraternisation with the enemy.

Vive la difference!

[Muddypause]

equal? - the same? - since when?

Martin, look steady on, mate... you may just about have enough rope there to hang yourself with (if that's not too inappropriate a comment for today). Give yourself a bit of slack...

I instead celebrate the wonderful, delightful differences between the sexes

What do you mean 'intead'? Equality does not mean that we are the same; it never has meant that. No wonder you're confused.

Equality is about justice, democracy and rights, not the size or position of your gonads, any more than the colour of your skin. Celebrating our differences does not mean favouring one over the other, making one subservient, or assuming privilege or power does it? Equality is about opportunity, not about chromosomes.

Celebrate our differences and work for our equality - the two in no way preclude each other.

I do not possess pointy bits in the chest area!

Speak for yerself, mate. Some of us are still growing.

[Martin]

what equality? -
If you and I toddle off to a strip show, we're sexist pigs - if women do it, it's just a bit of fun!
We're equal, so how come there's such a divisive programme as "woman's hour?"
How come we're equal until there's a flat tyre on a rainy night?, or a caravan loo that needs emptying?
Which brings us back to the fact that the word "actress" is eminently particular, accurate, and succinct - it denotes in one simple word what I wish to convey - I want to cast the role of Barbara Good, I therefore want an actress, not a "female actor", which is clumsy, ugly, imprecise, and divisive because "actor" is understood as a bloke what acts, whereas you have to add "female or lady" to actually get your message over with the new "pc" version!

[red]

I wish more men were like you!

thank goodness there are many men like muddypause.

[Tay]

I had thought that there was an extra 'd'. But, on reflection, I realised that I wouldn't write it as longditude. In fact, I think this is the first time I have written it! I will go with longitude.

Following a discussion with my husband, he assures me that it only has 1 'd' - his maths teacher had taught him this. Apparently, the main misconception that students had with pronunciation was long-ti-tude, not long-di-tude.

It is a bizarre word, and with its spelling/pronunciation, it isn't surprising that variations occur. At least the word latitude is easy to pronounce....