Dyslexia

[The Chili Monster]

Boots wrote::

While reversals are common in dyslexics, reversals are not a mathematical deficiency. Their reversal is an information transfer problem.

Which is what I meant. I used the word manifest. Not that dyslexics cannot handle computations.
I'm sorry that your son has been let down by the system, Baldowrie. As you point out, teachers are not trained to diagnose specific learning difficulties. How would you prefer these differences to be diagnosed?

[baldowrie]

thanks Boots can never remember the name of the number one!

I will have to tell my friend that she could be a mathematical genuis...she will wet herself laughing, in an accountant way not spending to much of course!!!

Chilli monster I would prefer that medically trained staff diagnosed these differences!

The teachers should only be the first call to say that there is a difference and ask the medical profession to assess the child. Most consultants are fed up with teacher diagnoses!

As said before paediatricians keep an informal list of schools in their area stating whether there have been any problems with the school and the child before them, even goes down to individual teachers names.

Whilst labels are needed for correct diagnoses and help the child should still be treated individually according to their needs and abilities, sadly that rarely happens.

The system is letting down the majority of kids with learning problems in this country, as highlighted by the media recently. Individual teachers are picking up the pieces with little or no back up from their heads or funding.

[PurpleDragon]

Thanks for all your comments - what a wealth of information out there!

I have looked at the markers for dyslexia - here are my results re my son :

Primary school age.

Has particular difficulty with reading and spelling. He reads well, and enjys reading to me and his sisters.

Puts letters and figures the wrong way round. Yep.

Has difficulty remembering tables, alphabet, formulae etc. No, he does this well. He is quite good at maths - better than me at his age!

Leaves letters out of words or puts them in the wrong order. Yes, he does this. He also spells phonetically. Kitchen = citson for example.

Still occasionally confuses 'b' and 'd' and words such as 'no/on'. He does this a lot. He will often read 'ball' instead of 'doll' for example.

Still needs to use fingers or marks on paper to make simple calculations. Yes, he still uses his fingers, but the concepts are well embedded. I think it is just habit, though.

Poor concentration. He cannot concentrate on anything for very long, unless it is something that really interests him. I'm the same though.

Has problems understanding what he/she has read. Nope. Unless it is material that is too adult for him.

Takes longer than average to do written work. Yes. He has to work hard with his writing

Problems processing language at speed. Nope.

Primary school age non-language indicators:

Has difficulty with tying shoe laces, tie, dressing. He still has problems with his laces, doesnt wear a tie, can do buttons no bother and zips. Doesnt put his stuff on inside out or anything.

Has difficulty telling left from right, order of days of the week, months of the year etc. Yeah, he has trouble here, and is mega-pi**ed that his sister (age 3) can tell her left from her right! He can remember days of the week, when prompted. He doesnt know one day from the next, he has to ask what day it is, and doesnt remember yesterday was Sunday. He doesnt remember his months.

Surprises you because in other ways he/she is bright and alert. He is very bright in some things. He can tell you how the internal combustion engine works, which I can't!

Has a poor sense of direction and still confuses left and right. Excellent sense of direction, and remembers the way to Shirlzs house better than me, only having been there once. (I took the credit the other day for getting us there a 2nd time when it was actually him )

Lacks confidence and has a poor self image. Nope. He is very sociable and loves being with other children. He thinks he's the bees-knees and is 'dead cool' the way he dresses.

[baldowrie]

Right he is NOT dyslexic!

If he were dyslexic his reading would not be good...they can't read the words because they are jumbled. When they do read they are very slow and read the same part over and over again to process the information, when they are old enough to realise they have a problem.

He sounds more like he has a milder, much milder form of what my son has which is thought to be Central Auditory Processing Disorder. However there is no test for this in children, but there is in adults.

He can be taught to over come this if mild, coping techniques.

I was told my son was dyslexic by a teacher, asked if he read well. She said yes so I asked how can he therefore be dyslexic. She thought about and said he can't, must be dyspraxia then Teacher diagnoses again!

See either the Health visitor or school doctor regarding an assessment as he obviously has a process disorder albeit probably only mildly. Get it sorted and he may only need a short spell of help

This is what I mean by a box kids have to fit in at school...he is not a snug fit!

[baldowrie]

of course it may just be the boy things were they developed slower than girls..again the box is too loose for them

[bwaymark]

Doesn't sound very dyslexic to me. The number of people that are actually clinically dyslexic is quite low, but the number of people 'learning disabilities' is fairly high (about 10%). Its still possible that he has a learning disability of some sort, but if my child was in the situation you described, I'd probably leave well enough alone and see what happens as far as diagnosis goes and just work on some copping skills.

Although modern educational philosophy doesn't seem to recognise it, everybody has strengths and weaknesses. It could be that your son simply has crap handwriting, it doesn't mean its a disability, nor does it mean he can never write, all it means is that he has to work harder at writing (or telling left from right) than others. Diagnosis is only useful if its going to teach practical coping skills, and my experience is that its often used as a means of 'writing off' students that need to work harder or providing an excuse to do things. It took me years and years of getting over all my 'special classes' and realising that I could complete with the normals, I just had to work harder at some things.

For example, it took me ages to learn to read. I was 9 years old and almost totally illiterate when my father decided that come hell or high-water I was going to learn to read, so he sat me in a room, with a book, every night, and wouldn't let me go until I had read for half an hour. There were tears (both me and him), tantrums and screaming but eventually I learnt to read and now I read more than most do. If his writing is a concern make him practice more. For me computers were a life-saver with my writing. I used a laptop for the last four years of secondary school to take all most notes etc, and but the end of the first year of university I stopped using laptops and start writing notes (laptops are a pain to carry around) because the computer had taught me such good organisational skills that I could write legible notes.

[baldowrie]

I agree with you the most but the problem is when a teacher decides a child has something wrong and the parent doesn't the parent then gets labelled as being in denial and things then go underground. The school then work behind your back down their path of diagnoses until you find out and then you have a real fight to stop that train..5 years for me and still going at it!

The school doctors in Scotland are a useful tool, they assess and stop that train if necessary. It can be done in one easy appointment. An appointment is also useful for some coping techniques. You probably not have to go a far I have had to.

As one good teacher said to me, when your son gets older no one is going to be using a pen any way!

[Boots]

Baldowrie - I'm sorry mate, but I really think you are way off and have no place drawing any sort of conclusion based on PD's preliminary observations. Medicine has no response for learning differences, and it will be a sad day when we start drugging kids just because they do not conform to norms set by the majority. Irlens therapy is a farce, and does nothing but give parents an out... in that they can then say they responded by paying stacks of money for rubbish and the problem just never "fixed itself".

It is vitally important that learning differences be accepted, identified and that effective responses be developed from within the learning environments, or very little will change will ever occur. These kids and adults will continue to struggle and simply be buffeted about from assessment to assessment, label to label and obstacle to obstacle. An assessment is absolutely useless, if it is not followed with restorative action or an adjustment in teaching- and that action MUST come from the primary teacher, (meaning the person who provides the majority of learning experiences). School management can't help them, school nurses, guidance officers etc. are lucky to see these kids for half an hour a week! Medical professionals offer about 5 minutes these days.

When Parents, Family and Traditional teachers come together, as PD has done here and all begin working towards a supportive learning environment - then we will see change.

Could I add a few bits PD, just for your consideration? Take what you want and leave the rest.


Has particular difficulty with reading and spelling.

He reads well, and enjys reading to me and his sisters.

It is possible for early readers to thoroughly enjoy reading, and the attention it receives, but not actually be effective readers. You may want to further explore how he is stringing together sentences, whether he is swapping or skipping any words, and consider how much of his reading is becoming rote or is stimulated by picture cues, and look at what reading strategies he is using when he encounters new words.

You make no comment here about spelling, but do refer to phonetic word building later on. Phonetics are a normal early developmental stage and very important. Phonetics are based on auditory processing. Slowly sound patterns are then recognised and stored...ch, st, sh, etc and these are added to the childs spelling skills base. I am uncertain of UK grading/age levels, but think you mentioned he is pre-3rd year(?), if so, he is still within normal development. This is something you and his sisters can begin assisting with by encouraging clear speech recognition and print recognition during reading.

Has difficulty remembering tables, alphabet, formulae etc.

No, he does this well. He is quite good at maths - better than me at his age!

This signpost is identifying sequencing difficulties. It does not refer to calculations. Sequencing skills can be developed by slowly building the length of instructions. You might ask him to "go and make his bed", or you could provide a distinct sequence... "I would like you to go into your room, pull back the doona, straighten the sheet and tuck it in at each corner, plump the pillows and put them under the doona, before you pull it back up and smooth it out." If he has difficulty recalling the first direction, start building them all slowly and repeat the whole string each time he hesitates. Another good (and much more fun) activity is weekly cooking using a recipe. Saturday arvo can become a fun way of ensuring he has regular sequencing practice.

Maybe also consider his alphabet piece meal. One little girl insisted for quite some time that ellem-enno-peekyou (L M N O P Q) was a word that must have a meaning!

Has problems understanding what he/she has read.

Nope. Unless it is material that is too adult for him.

Kids early readers do not usually have much depth and pictures are designed to support the story. The best way to measure this is often with directive notes. If you leave him a note on the fridge asking him to put his shoes in the car, does he respond to this. Does he ask why, or do it? Treasure hunts are a very good way of encouraging curious word exploration and increasing meaningful understanding.

Takes longer than average to do written work.

Yes. He has to work hard with his writing

In what area is he labouring? Letter formation? Word formation? Sentence formation? Focus? Identify the stumbling blocks to encourage and assist the flow. Another little girl had a very strong visual imprint of the typed letters her teacher had running across the blackboard in mind. Every letter she formed was a disappointment to her, and she would pause and make a silent 'wish' that the next one would be better. Some time at the computer going through all the different fonts, and changing the fonts on all worksheets often, soon helped her realise that perfect was not the goal, readability was.

Problems processing language at speed.

Nope.

If your young bloke can cognitively negotiate a string of information at speed - then please disregard any suggestion of CAPD.

Has difficulty with tying shoe laces, tie, dressing.

He still has problems with his laces, doesnt wear a tie, can do buttons no bother and zips. Doesnt put his stuff on inside out or anything.

Laces are another sequence. There are a number of different ways in which people tie laces. You may want to try scrapping which ever method you have been tring to imprint (because it is faulty) and find a caring/patient friend who uses an alternate method to reintroduce the new concept, slowly - and verbally introduce the sequence.

Has difficulty telling left from right, order of days of the week, months of the year etc.

Yeah, he has trouble here, and is mega-pi**ed that his sister (age 3) can tell her left from her right! He can remember days of the week, when prompted. He doesnt know one day from the next, he has to ask what day it is, and doesnt remember yesterday was Sunday. He doesnt remember his months.

This is sequencing again. Break it down to simple cues. Does he WRITE with his RIGHT hand? If so, provide that cue every time he hesitates.
If not, hold his hand and show him how his LEFT hand moves/points to the RIGHT when he WRITES. I have an adult friend who was recently learning to drive a truck and when approaching a roundabout she began panicking when asked to turn right. The quiet cue "You write with your right" immediately had her right hand responding and round we went.

Days and month sequences respond to a rhythm. Try turning them into songs and sing them in the bath, (use different and funny keys and get sisters to join in) or when vacuuming, jumping on a trampoline, digging in the garden etc. (These activities all have a supporting rhythm)

I think the majority of your responses 7/10 and 3/5 suggest there are some signposts here. That doesn't mean you or he has a problem. It simply means you have identified some areas in which he learns differently and may need some help to develop those areas. I am qualified to make that judgement, but like I said previously, I'm no expert. We are all learning (differently) every day.

[PurpleDragon]

An assessment is absolutely useless, if it is not followed with restorative action or an adjustment in teaching- and that action MUST come from the primary teacher, (meaning the person who provides the majority of learning experiences). School management can't help them, school nurses, guidance officers etc. are lucky to see these kids for half an hour a week! Medical professionals offer about 5 minutes these days.

With major input from the parent, which IMO is where the buck ultimately stops.

It is possible for early readers to thoroughly enjoy reading, and the attention it receives, but not actually be effective readers.

He is a good reader. He doesn't just mouth the words, but sees them in context and if he 'gets it wrong' he will go back and corrent himself to see why the sentence/ context doesn't read right.

and look at what reading strategies he is using when he encounters new words.

He looks at the letters individually, sounding them out loud, and then strings them together to try to make the word. Tonight he got stuck on the word 'Cheyannes' - he thought is said 'chains' which I thought was quite a good guess.

I am uncertain of UK grading/age levels, but think you mentioned he is pre-3rd year(?), if so, he is still within normal development.

He is age 7, and this is his 3rd year in full time primary school.

This signpost is identifying sequencing difficulties. It does not refer to calculations. Sequencing skills can be developed by slowly building the length of instructions.

This is something I personally have a huge problem with. If someone gives me a set of directions, for example, I read to the first junction, drive there, then pull over and read to the next junction. Shilz can vouch for how bad I am at this! My son, on the other hand, went to Shirlz's house once, and then directed me himself the 2nd trip. I would have gotten lost. He follows treasure maps made by his Daddy with enjoyment.

Maybe also consider his alphabet piece meal.

He has no problems with alphabet at all. I can ask a random question - what is the letter before S for example, and he will answer.

If you leave him a note on the fridge asking him to put his shoes in the car, does he respond to this. Does he ask why, or do it?

He is more likely to tell me to do it myself, or he will do it later LOL

In what area is he labouring? Letter formation? Word formation? Sentence formation? Focus?

His letter formation is poor. Example : lower case 'f'. Most folk will start the shape from the top of the curve but he starts from the line and draws the letter upwards. He does this with a lot of letters - starting from the line and drawing upwards. He used to be able to write mirror image words as well, but doesnt do that anymore. His spelling is poor - as I said - he thinks phonetically. However, his teacher offers a 'word box' in class and they have to pick out a few words and write a story based on this. He can do that. He is given spelling words, then has to write a sentence with the word in context - he can do that.

If your young bloke can cognitively negotiate a string of information at speed - then please disregard any suggestion of CAPD.

What is CAPD?

Laces are another sequence. There are a number of different ways in which people tie laces.

He can tie them. He can remember how, and tries to teach his sister (age 3). However, his fingers seem to get in the way and he fumbles them.

Does he WRITE with his RIGHT hand? If so, provide that cue every time he hesitates.

I tell him this every single time he forgets, and that recalls it to him, but then he forgets again.

That doesn't mean you or he has a problem. It simply means you have identified some areas in which he learns differently and may need some help to develop those areas. I am qualified to make that judgement, but like I said previously, I'm no expert. We are all learning (differently) every day.

I think that is the case. I don't think he has anything that can't be trained away - he needs to practice writing from the top instead of from the line, for example. He is neater when he writes from the top and he can recognise that. We are just going to do writing and spelling practice daily, and see where we go.

[PurpleDragon]

Get it sorted and he may only need a short spell of help

This is what I mean by a box kids have to fit in at school...he is not a snug fit!

I dont think he is either, Baldowrie. I believe that, with help from me and his Dad, we can overcome any difficulties he has in this area. We made massive headway in just one evenings work, and although this was just foundation work, the results were very encouraging.

[zombiecazz]

off topic a bit, but still associated. When my DS was in primary 3 (i think). he was assessed by a Speach Therapist. One of her comments was that he couldn't catch a ball. We thought this was a bit odd, so we went home and Practiced for hours throwing and catching a ball.
You know what the problem was......yup he just needed some practice in this area. Wasn't something he'd done regularly.

[baldowrie]

Boots

Baldowrie - I'm sorry mate, but I really think you are way off and have no place drawing any sort of conclusion based on PD's preliminary observations. Medicine has no response for learning differences, and it will be a sad day when we start drugging kids just because they do not conform to norms set by the majority. Irlens therapy is a farce, and does nothing but give parents an out... in that they can then say they responded by paying stacks of money for rubbish and the problem just never "fixed itself".

sorry lost me, when I state that she should be drugging her child? I would never suggest that, don't believe in it doping them up to the eye balls. What I have said, and it is proven fact in this country at least, that omega 3 fish oil have had some beneficial result on children with learning difficulties (and I have said it doesn't work for all somewhere along the line). I have also said that they are very helpful to my son and the transformation is good..IT DOES NOT CURE HIM!

When did I state he had CAPD? I said it is probable MY son has and he sounds as though he has a much milder form and more like processing problems that can be over come coping techniques. OR nothing at all and maybe he is just a boy, as many are, who is slower than girls of his age.
CAPD..Central Auditory Processing Disorder
http://kidshealth.org/parent/medical/ea ... itory.html

In this country it can not be formally diagnosed in children only in adults, do not ask me why this is what my sons paediatrician has told me, and she tried to get the dept that does the test to take him on.

Boots
School management can't help them, school nurses, guidance officers etc. are lucky to see these kids for half an hour a week! Medical professionals offer about 5 minutes these days.

Maybe in Australia they do, but in my experience my sons appointments have always been 1 -2 hr long unless it was just to refer him on.

Zoombie, never know a speech therapist to do motor function tests

purple dragon

I didn't think he is either, Baldowrie. I believe that, with help from me and his Dad, we can overcome any difficulties he has in this area. We made massive headway in just one evenings work, and although this was just foundation work, the results were very encouraging.

which is exactly what I said much earlier my friends parent did with her when she had a formal diagnose of dyslexia. You say 'trained' I say 'coping technique'. Same thing learning how to do the task in the best way they can.

Just a matter of interest my son mirror writes and read up side down and back to front (so can I) and also does literal mirror block formations on Occupational Therapist Assessment which amazes them not only how accurate he is but the speed he does it at, faster than a child reproducing the formation as they should.




From what you are saying PD he sounds like with a little extra help he is able to overcome his problems, and maybe you will not hear any more from his teacher as she will have no concerns. But the school doctor or Health Visitor is always there as a back up to help you get what you and the school need to help him. You may find the school have already called in the School Doctor to see him. In England the School Nurse is the first port of call.

[PurpleDragon]

Just a matter of interest my son mirror writes and read up side down and back to front (so can I)

He used to do this. He doesn't do it anymore though. I don't know why he stopped, or in fact WHEN he stopped - he just did.

and also does literal mirror block formations on Occupational Therapist Assessment which amazes them not only how accurate he is but the speed he does it at, faster than a child reproducing the formation as they should.

I don't know what literal mirror block formations are.

From what you are saying PD he sounds like with a little extra help he is able to overcome his problems, and maybe you will not hear any more from his teacher as she will have no concerns.

I shall follow it up with her, but I think if we keep on top of it, that will be all is needed.

You may find the school have already called in the School Doctor to see him. In England the School Nurse is the first port of call.

If they have, and haven't discussed it with me, I shall be down on them like a tonne of bricks! She never said she had, though, when we talked about it. She did say she would follow it up after Xmas if no progress had been made - perhaps that was her plan.

[baldowrie]

They don't always tell you until the process has happened if the school are bringing the doctor in. But it's no bad thing as you get your point across and if the doctor finds with you they fight your corner. So if they call the school doctor in, see them at his assessment and talk to them. You can call them in too if you want now under the new rules.

Block formation, in Occupational tests the kids are given coloured blocks and dependant on age they either match the coloured blocks or following pictures of shapes. Most children, and adults will copy the shapes as the see it. I.e if there is a tower on the left hand side on the pictured you will build on on the left hand side, and anything in front of that tower you will build yours in front of the tower (facing you). My son will build it in the order of the picture and anything in front of the tower he will build behind the tower, copying the formation of the picture exactly as it on the picture and in exactly the same order and position, which means his blocks mirror the picture. Mirroring is not so unusual for kids like my son but it's the speed an accuracy they are amazed at, that is unusual. Every block placed is a perfect mirror image except the simple formations. The really hard ones are always 100% correct, but in reverse. Some of them I have looked at and I would have troubled building them how it is expected let alone in mirror image, OT said the same and certainly not with his speed.

Hopefully your son will not have to go that far.

Mirror writing little kiddies often do this then grow out of it, he may just have been later.

This thread has made me really realise just how bad my son is with his problems, but I already knew that but as mum you just get on with the job don't you

As said earlier my friend is dyslexic, she was classed by teachers as a real dumb lazy good for nothing but abuse kid...she is an accountant working freelance and certainly not hard up!

Might be wrong but is not Richard Branson (Virgin) dyslexic???

[PurpleDragon]

I hate that these schools think they can do anything at all with my kid without my permission. They ask permission slips to be completed for a school trip, but call in a Dr without asking me first? I don't think so! Not without being introduced to The Banshee Inside!

Yes, you do just get on with things. No2Child has food intolerances and, yes, you just adjust. When she started nursery they asked me for a list of foods she can have. How long is a piece of string? Now I check the snack list every day and tell them if it is a 'no'. She's very good though - she generally knows what she can have.