Electric car

[LSP]

Checked out a neat electric car yesterday. Thinking of buying one for when I need it next year (takes five to six months to deliver).

I walk to most place I need to get to except when distances are too long for young son. Come next year I hope to move into new business premises and will need some transport for goods, papers. equipment, etc. Son (and mate) will need fetching from Games across the road from these premises twice a week.

Does anyone else drive an electric car, and what do you think about it? I was looking at a G-Wiz http://www.goingreen.co.uk/. Tax-free!

[jondy]

I was a member of the battery vehicle society, (bvs.org. google), I thought of converting a golf pick up to electric power. I got as far as an electric bike! Look at the bvs website, it might be worth joining as they have many members up and down the country and meet up and discuss all sorts of things, lots of self builders making practical transport. My own opinion is this. If you live in London or Richmond for example and suffer the charges to drive and park in London then the g wizz may be a worthwhile buy. Otherwise I think the g wizz is an overpriced lemon. Jonathan Ross slated his, it struggled to go up hill with van drivers waving arms etc. More green practical motorized transport may be an older second hand small diesel car running on (new or waste vo) vegetable cooking oil, perhaps. Generally a small diesel like the VW lupo gets better mpg than hybrids. A solar powered car has been registered in the UK, not exactly practical transport though.

John

[Muddypause]

I was a member of the battery vehicle society...lots of self builders making practical transport.

That sounds like a wheeze.

What is the legal side of this like? When I converted my car to LPG several years ago, all I had to do was inform my insurance company of the modification. But things have changed, and if I was to do the same thing now any insurance company will ask for a certificate to show the conversion was done to a standard laid down by the LPGA. There is nothing illegal about doing your own conversion, but no certificate, no insurance, so no legal way to use the car on the road. Needless to say, the LPGA is behind all this, as a way of eliminating the competition.

[jondy]

Hi, the vehicle you convert to battery power remains in essence the same vehicle. ie it will conform to regs, MOT and the like. In the same way LPG in another tank in the boot does not alter the brakes or steering etc. To keep it simple, the engine is removed and an electric motor substituted. A small pick up truck is a good way to go as the batteries are carried outside of the passenger compartment ie in a safe position, in the case of a roll over or fire for example. A small pick up has the springs/load carrying capability to carry enough battery power to make the vehicle useful. Converting a petrol car can be a good way to go if you have the skills or you could buy a ready converted one. The big cost is batteries after conversion, lead acid being the cheapest and high tech batteries giving better range but at high cost. An electric vehicle has free road tax (I think) and can travel and park in many areas without charge. Changing to LPG is still burning fossil fuels. I think at this time burn veggie in a diesel and pay the tax for some of the stuff you use to keep legal. As taxes increase to make petrol/diesel cars more expensive the attraction of electric will increase.

John

[Stonehead]

As taxes increase to make petrol/diesel cars more expensive the attraction of electric will increase.

John

Having driven a much-loved and worked on Enfield 8000 (lovely but slow) and a Toyota RAV4-EV, I love EVs!

I'd love to have an EV for the Other Half to get to work and back (15 miles there, 15 back) and a wind turbine to charge it; a pedal trike with electric motor for my trips into town and back; and the Defender fully converted to run biodiesel for the abbatoir runs, occasional long journey and occasional heavy work.

Sadly, I'd need a rather large chunk of cash for that... :)

[Muddypause]

Hi, the vehicle you convert to battery power remains in essence the same vehicle. ie it will conform to regs, MOT and the like.

My question was really about the insurance, though. Is such a self-built conversion easily insureable?

An electric vehicle has free road tax (I think) and can travel and park in many areas without charge.

I would check out the details of this, because with LPG, the rules are not entirely straightforward. An LPG conversion will only get a reduced road tax if it conforms to other requirements - I can't recall them off-hand, but I think the age of the vehicle is a factor. If you want to avoid the London Congestion Charge, an LPG converted vehicle needs to be on the Powershift Register - ie., the conversion has been 'approved'.

Changing to LPG is still burning fossil fuels.

Quite right. But it still has environmental advantages over petrol and diesel, particularly on a pre-catalyst car like mine.

I think at this time burn veggie in a diesel and pay the tax for some of the stuff you use to keep legal.

As an interim measure, that's plausible. But some of us are concerned at the thought of a future where whole (third world) countries are given over to a monoculture of GM biomass.

As taxes increase to make petrol/diesel cars more expensive the attraction of electric will increase.

I think you are right. I am a car user, and it will take a lot for me to give it up entirely, but we have to reassess our use of them, and I have long said that road fuel is far too cheap. In cities, at least, small electric vehicles may be the future, if recharging them can be made easy.

[jondy]

Hi stew, I think no road tax is correct. Insurance, I would think a doddle as only about 10hp (guess) is needed as opposed to say 60 or so. Electric motors are far more efficient than the I(infernal) Combustion Engine where most of the energy is lost in heat. I might be wrong, but I think that most LPG conversions are carried out on larger gas guzzlers to achieve reasonable fuel economy of say 30mpg. I changed a large van into a motorhome, I sent photographs of my creation to DVLA and I received a log book that said motor caravan. Why would they want to worry about taking out a planet destroying petrol engine and replacing it with an electric motor. I think the benchmark for fuel economy in the near future will be 60mpg plus. The latest wheeze to bring our attention to saving the world is in part to bring in more taxes. We are responsible for 5% of world pollution so saving 10% of that 5% won't make so much difference. Will China stop turning out hundreds of coal fueled generators? Will the Indian continent not want to own cars and have electric gadgets? It is true that veggie fuel has serious problems if taken up wholesale. For now, if you run on waste veg oil you have about the greenest vehicle on the planet.

John

[Martin]

everything's about sums - but knowing quite which ones to do can get very confusing!
On the face of it, an electric car like that looks great for cities, and there are very obvious "lack of taxation" benefits, so it may be economically feasible, but you need to do the "dust to dust" calculations before assuming it's better for the environment! Newsnight did the sums on a Prius, and came to the conclusion that a simply built and crude yankee gas-guzzler like a Jeep Cherokee was, over it's lifetime, far less damaging than the hitech Prius which swallows enormous amounts of energy in both it's construction and recycling!
The thing I couldn't find on the site was the price of a replacement battery pack, that is a "replaceables" cost that has to be factored in - large deep cycle batteries don't come cheap!

[jondy]

you are right Martin, the dust to dust figures don't add up. In the case of the Prius this car has become a sort of badge of honour to show your green credentials. I saw a roadtest carried out by an American journo. He tested the Prius against a diesel Passat over the same journey and found the Passat gave more mpg. To be self sufficientish you might buy a recycled car, ie a used one and use recylcled fuel, waste cooking oil. Stonehead could achieve the ultimate green car with his Enfield ev with the batteries charged from a windmill, perhaps. Then there is the batteries, as you say. Not cheap and likely very polluting to make and scrap. Back to the horse then.

John

[Muddypause]

We are responsible for 5% of world pollution so saving 10% of that 5% won't make so much difference.

Don't be misled. There are some politicians (not necessarily the ones in parliament) who love figures like that. But 5% is far more than our pro-rata share; Britain has far less than 5% of the world's population - we are contributing disproportionately more than the average. Hiding that behind a small figure like 5% is disingenuous. We have to be responsible for what is ours.

Also bear in mind that the 'drop in the ocean' argument is exactly how we got into this situation in the first place - one person, or even one country, won't make a whole lot of difference either way. Except that we already have made that difference, one drop at a time. That's the nub of the problem, and now we have to find a way out of the mess we've made.

[Wombat]

Wasn't Einstien who said that was can't solve the problem with the same kind of thinking that created it?

Nev

[colhut]

For insurance, I wouldn't have thought it would be too much of a problem. If it was me I'd contact Adrian Flux (google it). They deal with kit car, custom and specialist vehicles all the time. There must be others too. The mainstream insurers will invariably be a waste of time, there isn't a tick box for converted to electric on their forms.

[Stonehead]

For insurance, I wouldn't have thought it would be too much of a problem. If it was me I'd contact Adrian Flux (google it). They deal with kit car, custom and specialist vehicles all the time. There must be others too. The mainstream insurers will invariably be a waste of time, there isn't a tick box for converted to electric on their forms.

Norwich Union cover electric vehicles, but I don't know how easy they make it or what their quotes are like. I do know you can't insure an EV online with them.

[jondy]

Hi Muddypause, The fact is, if we were to shut down all of the UKs polluting, the onward march of China, India and other nations on the up would bring us to a position of grief, if you believe that argument, anyway. I do believe we are helping to alter climate. I also believe that Blair/Brown have a huge smile as they have a licence to print money, lovely green taxes. How will the argument pan out on the world stage when we say we are fitting low energy lightbulbs and recycling rubbish, so how you about you building fewer coal powered generators? You, being the masses yet to have electicity in their homes or a 4 by 4 outside their doors. Look at the urgent need for change. It is said that if we all fit low energy light bulbs we could save building a power station. Blair said that he would like to increase taxes on the old style light bulbs, he did,nt say we are in trouble take the VAT off low energy light bulbs etc. Where is the urgent need for change? I think, for me, its mainly about saving money, trying to go more off grid to survive the high cost economy. Rates doubled or the pension black hole to pay for, for example.

John