Bio-Diesel

[steve64]

The problem with bio diesel or any bio fuel is the energy ratio you need to get it to your tank!
The best bio fuel is from sugar cane with a ratio of 2.2 to 1 for every 2.2 gallons it,
Takes 0ne gallon to make it.


Fertiliser (from natural gas)
Fuel for the farm machinery,
Processing the sugar cane,
Shipping it to the petrol stations,
are all taken into consideration,


Some bio fuels are even worse!

Now here is the bad news! Light sweet crude ratio is 30 to 1
That's why they go to war over oil!!!

[BraveWorrier]

You can read more on the cost and savings from biofuels in the JRC/EUCAR Well to Wheels report ( http://ies.jrc.cec.eu.int/115.html )

The report appendices are a bloody nightmare to read but have fantastic data on the cost and carbon put into a number of fuel options from the source to the delivery point.

It shows that some biofuel options aren't very green at all, with ethanol from wheat actually creating more carbon than if you just burnt petrol in the first place!

Biodiesel from chip shop oil and fat is pretty good, because it's there for the taking, however there's not much of it, and won't be a solution for the whole country. Biodiesel from rapeseed has about half the carbon content (measured in kilograms of carbon / kilometre driven) of diesel so isn't as 'carbon neutral' as most people report!

[Smooth Hound]

THERE HAS BEEN QUITE A LOT OF DISCUSSION ON THIS SUBJECT ON THE FORD TRANSIT FORUM, LOOK UNDER TECHNICAL SECTION OR UNDER MK3,4 AND5 SECTION OR POSSIBLY TRANSIT TALK. OR YOU CAN DO A SEARCH FOR VEG OIL, ALSO LOOK AT ACETONE.

[kenboak]

List,

I decided to avoid the bio-diesel route and go for straight burning of filtered waste vegetable oil.

First find a suitable engine - I recommend the Lister CS (1929 -1987 RIP) which will give you up to 3kW of homebrew power and a load of heat. Buy them on ebay for under £300.

My setup in my garden shed is documented here

www.powercubes.com/listers.html

and my blog is here

http://sustburbia.blogspot.com/


Looking to contact other suburban eco-pioneers in the South London/ North Surrey area.



Ken

[Smooth Hound]

How much are you paying for the oil , it is legal to buy red for a generator, which is abvout 28p a litre, or is it the environmental issue, if it is dont forget to check out the GM ingredience, as you can get GM free veg oil

[kenboak]

Hi Smooth Hound & List,

I normally get my oil from 3 local pubs. I give the chef a couple of quid for each 20 litre can - so 10p per litre.

You can also buy filtered waste vegetable oil in bulk for about 28p a litre from Arrow Oils. Have to buy a 1000 litre IBC, but I would need about 2 of these a year.

http://www.arrowoils.co.uk/used_filtered_oil.htm

My aim is to move away from fossil fuels as far as possible, and for the moment, this means paying a premium.

Using red diesel, to save money doesn't really come into the equation.

Nobody died fighting over vegetable oil.


Ken

[Cheezy]

Nobody died fighting over vegetable oil.

Ken

YET!

[Smooth Hound]

Whilst I agree it is a good idea to use veg oil rather than diesel for global warming and middle east war reasons, dont over look the reality of how veg oil is produced, most is GM grown with seeds produced by the likes of Monsantos, they have produced seeds which will grow grain but produce asterile grain which can not be used to grow more grain in the traditional way, so that we will be as reliant on them as we are on the oil industry now, then people possibly will die, these plants are already being grown in secret, and in Africa and other third world countries with the pretence of financial help etc, the reality is that the powers that be are quite aware that we could use veg oil to replace diesel, but they actually obstruct its use rather than encourage it, because they havent quite managed yet to prevent normal production which we could do for ourselves, when they have made it so only approved people can produce and sell it, you will find it in the garage at 65% more than its real price.
Shell originally was a shell importer, when shell importing was big, It only moved into oil when the world became reliant on oil, when it is reliant on veg oil it will move to that but will still have the same shareholders.
Also dont over look cross pollination , which could cost species of plants, hence species of insects and animals and mammals, thats us humans.
Mike

[kenboak]

Mike,

Thanks for your post on possible GM oil seed crops.

I agree that with pressure on any crop to produce higher yields, that companies like Monsanto will take an interest , and produce GM variants.

The main problem is that with more than 6 billion world population, we have to find sustainable ways of feeding everyone.

We are also facing an almighty energy crisis within the next few decades, and we have to find a way of plugging the gap left by fossil fuels.

Energy crops are only a partial solution, provided that they donot compete with land used for food production. But bearing in mind the ruthless nature of humans so far, I see a conflict arising over land use.

The oil corporations will turn their hand to bio-crops, and we will still be no better off.

Our only hope is that we can develop new strains of crop, such as algae, that can be grown in vast quantities in sunbelt or desert regions. These would maximise the amount of energy that we can capture from the sun,and produce a product that can be turned into a useful hydrocarbon compound for use in manufacturing plastics and as a synthetic fuel. This might all be "pie in the sky" and we do not find an efficient way of capturing the sun's energy in a form that can be used.

One other option is to start planting trees. I calculated that my household would need 6 tonnes of woodchips or similar wood waste in order to heat and power it each year - despite my frugal efforts to get my consumption right down.

You need a great deal of biomass to replace fairly manageable quantities of oil, gas and electricity.

Multiply that by 30 million UK households, and you can begin to see the problem that we are facing.

There is not going to be an easy fix. I fully expect to see fossil fuels depleted within 30 years, and I cannot see any evidence that the UK government is taking the issues seriously.

I do intend to take out my own "insurance policy" against fossil fuel exhaustion, as will many others in this group. By living frugally and in a sustanable manner, reducing one's requirements for fossil fuels is going to put you in a position of advantage. A smooth hound that is ahead of the pack!

Might I suggest reading "The Long Emergency" by James Howard Kunstler. He spells out the problem we are facing in no uncertain terms.

I also recommend "The Road to Wigan Pier" by George Orwell, as an reminder of just how crap life can get - in the depression of the 1930s.



Ken

[Smooth Hound]

Yes I agree with what you are saying, and I too have my contingency plans, but I think realistically the western world will have to change the whole way of its existence, and I am sure that ity will be pointed out that we can not sustain our way of life andliving a life where we hope something is found before it is too late to sustain our power hunger in both senses of the word is impracticle, and unsustainable, the only real answer is for all of us to except and drive towards living with in our natural means,any other answere is short term and can only cause unkown as yet dammage.
mike

[kenboak]

Hi All,

Nice to meet some of you at the Great Dorset Steam Fair last week.

Yesterday I telephoned the HM Customs and Revenue advice line to get clarification about whether there was any duty to be paid on biofuel, specifically veg oil (SVO, WVO) when used to fuel a domestic CHP system.

The advisor said that no duty was payable provided that the CHP system was not being used for commercial purposes - ie domestic use only. They reserve the right to inspect the system to confirm domestic use only.

The details are hidden in sections 3.9 and 4.1 of the following HM C & R document "Biofuels and Other Fuel Substitutes"

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPort ... e=document


This is another positive step forward to veg oil fuelled Domestic CHP.

If you don't fancy the idea of collecting waste vegetable oil, try John Petifer at JP Oils (Southampton) 02380 610 179

His company will supply clean, once-used sunflower oil, used for making crisps, in quantities of 1000 litres ( IBC) for about £300.

They are part of a UK wide consortium supplying WVO to the biodiesel manufacturers.




Ken

[Smooth Hound]

I dont understand how that is a step forward, why would they charge revenue on veg oil for a domestic central heating system, they charge the same as they do on any domestic heating oil, which I think is nothing, so there is no advantage financially, which is what they are interested in, they also know that at present veg oil is dearer, so there isnt any thing to worry them about it, I am surprised that giving people the right to come into your home without warning to check that there is no commerce going on in your home is seen as a step forward. I would call that actively putting obsticles in your way. I was reading a report about a chap who looked into, straining veg oil from chip shops to run his vehicle on, they told him firstly he would have to register him self as a fuel manufacturer, so he did, then he had to keep a record and send them all the correct paperwork, paid the duty required, because like you and I he was willing to spend the time and money in order to help save the environment, Like you say he was asked to sign a thing giving them permission to enter his property including his private home any time to inspect things, so he went along with all this. He was honest in every thing he did yet a few months later he had a visit from the authorities at dawn, they arrived with the police, they were there for a long time and would not let his chgildren or wife leave until they had finished, so every one was late to work and school, they found nothing suspicious and made no apology, he put it down to experience and thought it was maybe a mistake, until 6 months later the same happened exactly the same. Needless to say he was put off the whole idea.
That I do not see as a step forward I see that as actively preventing the chap from doing something he legally chose to do to help the environment. Incidently when they visited him they had copies of his E mails, as he had been trying to encourage people on the internet to do the same, he believes that that is why they wanted to prevent him from succeeding. Any way you make of it what you will, but I know what my opinion, is active obstruction by the authorities.
Mike

[kenboak]

Mike & List,

It is a step forward in that we are not going to be further taxed by the Government's agencies for using renewable fuel.

Fossil fuels are rising in price rapidly, whilst waste vegetable oils will not see the same rate of rise.

As the price gap widens between fossil fuels and biofuels, it will kickstart a range of old technologies that can utilise renewable fuels. These technologies are now becoming viable.

It cost me £800 a year to heat and power my home from the utilities last year. This year I will do it for considerably less on renewables, namely WVO and wood fuel.

This is a legitimate loophole in taxation that allow the individual to utilise renewable fuels without further penalisation.



Ken

[kenboak]

Mike,

Further to my last post.

HM C & R take a very serious view of people running their diesel fuelled vehicles on waste vegetable oil.

WVO is not recognised as a legitimate motor fuel, but a fuel substitute. Under current taxation, it carries a 47p per litre duty.

I am not concerned with running vehicles on the cheap. I am proposing a viable means of running your home on renewable fuels and thus reducing the carbon emissions.


Ken

[Smooth Hound]

In that case, you need to ask yourself why they state that they reserve the right to inspect your premises to check that it is not being used for commercial purposes? HMR&C are fully aware of what most people use recycled veg oil for and would doubtless be concerned that you, as a fuel producer, would be using it for purposes other than that which you have stated to them. For example, despite you telling them what you are using the fuel for, you might also be using it in your vehicle or selling it on to others who may use it in their vehicles and so your story about central heating fuel may be just a cover story.

You obviously are a completely honest chap but they don't know that and certainly won't be taking the risk of letting you produce fuel without checking that that is all you are using it for.


We'll see in a year's time if your experience has been positive or if you have been treated with the same suspicion as the other legitimate chap. I'll be interested to see if it has gone well as I may consider using biofuels myself, if so. I hope i'm just being paranoid and that you prove me wrong. I certainly admire you for your brave stand. Good luck and keep us informed.