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Martin
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Post: # 24618Post Martin »

a suggestion for Andy -you can get bookings as a "passenger" on cargo boats - the facilities are basic but good, the food usually excellent, it just comes without all of the ghastly "bells and whistles" of modern cruising....... :wink:
If nobody had cars, you'd hop on a bus, or use your bike, or solar charged electric bike, and then onto a train, and if needs be, a boat! - hells bells, England built an empire without aircraft - they are NOT indispensible! :wink:
Here we are, with a great history of being a maritime nation, loads of excellent natural ports, the expertise in place to design modern high efficiency fast sailing vessels, and are too busy using aircraft to look in our own backyard for a pragmatic solution!................ :geek:
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Post: # 24619Post Hillbilly »

Given god-like powers I'd smite the whole lot of them (cars, buses, planes etc) and have the entire worlds population living in tribes. But I'm not god. And its not realistic.

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Post: # 24621Post Martin »

the point everyone seems to be missing is that this isn't a convenient "consumer choice" but an absolute necessity - we SHOULD be doing all we can to drastically cut all flying, and providing sensible alternatives - I see no movement from governments to do so - it stuffs the "model" they are all working on to keep the economic house of cards vertical. If we take decisive action NOW there is a chance we may preserve our home for generations to come - anything less I see as being "fiddling while the earth burns" :wink:
As usual, we'll probably have to wait until the Houses of Parliament have sunk under the waves before they'll actually wake up! 8)
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Post: # 24624Post Andy Hamilton »

Millymollymandy wrote:Why all this anti flying all of a sudden when a couple of days ago everyone was anti car? It sure beats me.
I think that it has opened a pretty intelligent debate, there will be a time sooner than you think that alternatives to air travel will have to become a reality. unless you can run an airbus on biodisel. :lol:
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Post: # 24632Post Martin »

I think a lot of it is mankind's innate conservatism - people abhor change! :?
I can foresee a much brighter, happier world if we don't just faff about, but fully embrace many aspects of a GOOD change 8)
Dream along with me for a while - it's 2012, and we've just arrived at the nearest station to the BGG by train - one of the old diesels that's now happily running on Biodiesel chugs it's chippy way out of the station - what a lovely sight - multicoloured horse-drawn wagons, and new "milk float" electric wagons running on renewable electricity drawn up to collect us, our yurt, turbine and other bits and bobs - we bowl down the unspoilt lanes, the air full of English summer in full bloom, and are dropped on exactly the right spot by happy healthy people working outdoors..........all the time we're there we'll be using our own generated power, eating food grown locally, brought in by the same natural transport, boogying the night away to sounds amplified by use of wind and sun.............to return to "the real world" a week later, having had a totally wonderful holiday, and left hardly a footprint on the earth to say we've been :dave:
That to me knocks spots off any whizzing about, and all the hassle and stress and pollution of air travel - but then perhaps it is me that's barmy! :?
All you have to do is take my little "dream" scenario, and just apply the same thinking to everything..........it IS possible -all that's lacking is the will! 8)
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Post: # 24641Post Muddypause »

Seems to me there is a whole cycle of events going on here. 100 years ago, most people would have lived and died within a few miles of where they were born. This is probably still true for much of the world.

The air travel industry has been coming under increasing attack for a number of years now, not least in the call for aviation fuel to be taxed in the same way as road fuel (tricky, given the international nature of flight). It is one of the largest growth sectors of the world's economy, and some say it is also one of the most polluting.

But the fact is that we can now travel from the UK to mainland Europe for a few pounds. That is only possible because of the shear numbers of people travelling, and the huge volume of air journeys. It's that old rule of economics - make something cheap enough and people will buy it; make it cheaper, and more people will buy it. Add that to the other rule that says the more affluent we become, the more we will buy, and the more we buy, the cheaper it gets. The one thing these economic rules don't address is the damage that can be done - environmentally and socially - in the process.

So, maybe we should consider whether a society that disperses its population around the world is only possible because of the increasing accessibility of travel, in particular, flight. The only reason that people come to depend upon air travel to visit their family, is because their family had access to cheap travel in the first place. If there is no accessible travel, families will not get dispersed, and there will be no need for cheap travel to stay in touch with them.

I would say that travel of any sort is not a bad thing, but never before have we been moving about in such huge numbers, and consuming such vast quantities of fossil fuels in the process. Every drop of oil we burn releases carbon into the environment which has been locked up and had no part to play in the development of life on earth for millions of years. Burning this much oil, whether in a car or a plane, has to change the balance of things. As ever, changing things will be a cultural thing. One person avoiding flying holidays will not make any noticeable difference; a cultural shift is needed. I would never say don't drive, or don't fly, but I would suggest that as a culture we could do with reassessing our needs and priorities in this respect, and stop considering it as a right, so much as a privilege.

Apparently, our growing affluence, our population growth, and our consumption of oil all plot exactly the same line on a graph. Maybe the only way to reduce one of them is to reduce them all.
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Post: # 24643Post Cheezy »

OK here's a few thoughts to debate.

I'm a regualar business flier, but I have no choice about whether or not I go or phone, as my job requires me to stand on factory floors for boring hours on end. I can be several days at custmers, so the thought of travelling via car/ferry then spending 18 hours at customers then driving back, just isn't worth it. And don't think it's all silver service a lot of European destinations have been cut back due to competition with the cheepie airlines, plus my company can't afford to send us business class, ergo its Easyjet,BMIbaby and Ryan air for me along with all the lucky B*****S going on holiday.

I believe that the fuel used by the airlines should be taxed, and this would prevent unnecessary journies. the prices now are rediculus it's cheaper to fly to Ireland than it is to get the train to London. I know loads of people who do last minute bookings for a weekend abroad.When it used to be one flight a year for your main holiday.

I don't know if anyone saw the climate change programme a while back, but there is growing evidence that airplanes cause global dimming. This is where the condensation (Con trails) caused by the planes reflect back the sun light. This theory was proven after the 9 :11 attack when for the first time in history all airline travel was banned for a few weeks. One climatolegist measured something like a 3 to 4 degree increase during the day, and a 2 to 3 decrease during the night. So if all airline travel stopped the effects of global warming would be accelarated dramatically.
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Post: # 24649Post Muddypause »

Cheezy wrote:I don't know if anyone saw the climate change programme a while back, but there is growing evidence that airplanes cause global dimming. This is where the condensation (Con trails) caused by the planes reflect back the sun light. This theory was proven after the 9 :11 attack when for the first time in history all airline travel was banned for a few weeks. One climatolegist measured something like a 3 to 4 degree increase during the day, and a 2 to 3 decrease during the night. So if all airline travel stopped the effects of global warming would be accelarated dramatically.
You must have seen a different version of the programme to the one I saw. Water vapour is a greenhouse gas, and the research also showed that the contrails at altitude contribute significantly to the greenhouse effect. The net effect of a contrail is an increase in overall global warming. The results that I heard seemed to show that global warming may have been slowed down as a result of the decreased air movements after 11/9. You are right about the night-time effect, though - there is only the 'blacket effect' at night, when there is no sunlight to reflect, so the effect of night-flights is worse.
Last edited by Muddypause on Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post: # 24650Post The Chili Monster »

a viald pinot, Mduypusdae.
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Post: # 24691Post ina »

Millymollymandy wrote: Not all of them. What about children? They don't get a say in the matter as to where they live. My father lived 12,000 miles away from me. :(
I'm not trying to attack you, Mandy, and I know that circumstances and attitudes were different when you (and I!) were young. However, I'm sure nobody forced your father with the gun to his head to be 12,000 miles away from his family. Ok, these things happen, he might have been an asylum seeker or refugee. However, it was probably his job that took him away - you've got to get your priorities right here: Nowadays, when we know how damaging flying is, we should make sure we live near our job (same goes for all those folk who commute for hours by car!).

And if it wasn't his job, well, maybe he didn't want his family nearby... I'm actually quite glad my siblings are not next door. And yes, I did fly to my father's bedside, too, when he was in hospital. The last time I flew was to his funeral.

Even the Romans got around a lot, 2,000 years ago. They just didn't have the expectation that if, say, a relative died, they'd know about it the same day, and be at the funeral the day after. The culture of "everything right now" that we live in goes not just for consumer goods, but also for knowledge and information, and compassion.
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Post: # 24758Post Millymollymandy »

Ina - the reason my father lived the other side of the world in Fiji is because that is where he was from. I was born there. However marriages break up and kids go with their mothers; in my case, she happened to be English and therefore went back home to England. Kids in tow with no say in the matter. My father did try life in England but it was not for him - too big a cultural and climate change.

It was nothing to do with jobs or asylum seeking or guns held against heads. You shouldn't try to assume.

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Post: # 24782Post Cheezy »

[/quote]You must have seen a different version of the programme to the one I saw. Water vapour is a greenhouse gas, and the research also showed that the contrails at altitude contribute significantly to the greenhouse effect. The net effect of a contrail is an increase in overall global warming. The results that I heard seemed to show that global warming may have been slowed down as a result of the decreased air movements after 11/9. You are right about the night-time effect, though - there is only the 'blacket effect' at night, when there is no sunlight to reflect, so the effect of night-flights is worse.[/quote]

I was a different programme Stu it was Horizon now I think of it:

Here's the link:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/program ... rans.shtml

THis is the main bit, basically the water droplets reflect a portion of the suns ray's back up, hence reducing global warming

NARRATOR: It was David Travis who first caught a glimpse of what the world could be like without Global Dimming. It happened in those chaotic days following the tragedy of 9/11. For fifteen years, Travis had been studying the vapour trails, or contrails, left behind by high-flying aircraft. Though each individual contrail seems small, when they all spread out, they can blanket the sky.

DR DAVID TRAVIS: Here are some examples of what we call outbreaks of contrails. These are large clusters of contrails. And here's a particularly er good one from Southern California. Here's the west coast of the United States. And you can see here this lacing network of contrails er covering at least fifty per cent, if not seventy five per cent or more of the sky in that area. It doesn't take an expert to er realise that if, if you look at the satellite picture and see this kind of contrail coverage that they've got to be having an effect on temperature at the surface.

NARRATOR: But the problem Travis faced was to establish exactly how big an effect the contrails were actually having. The only way to do that was to find a period of time when, although conditions were right for contrails to form, there were no flights. And, of course, that never happened. Until September 2001. Then, for three days after the 11th virtually all commercial aircraft in the US were grounded. It was an opportunity Travis could not afford to miss. He set about gathering temperature records from all over the USA.

DR DAVID TRAVIS: Initially data from over 5,000 weather stations across the 48 united states, the areas that was most dominantly affected by the grounding.

NARRATOR: Travis was not looking just at temperature - that varies a lot from day to day anyway. Instead he focused on something that normally only changes quite slowly: the temperature range. The difference between the highest temperature during the day and the lowest at night. Had this changed at all during the three days of the grounding?

DR DAVID TRAVIS: As we began to look at the climate data and the evidence began to grow I got more and more excited. The actual results were much larger than I expected. So here we see for the 3 days preceding September 11th a slightly negative value of temperature range with lots of contrails as normal. Then we have this sudden spike right here of the 3 day period. This reflects lack of clouds, lack of contrails, warmer days cooler nights, exactly what we expected but even larger than what we expected. So what this indicates is that during this 3 day period we had a sudden drop in Global Dimming contributed from airplanes.

NARRATOR: During the grounding the temperature range jumped by over a degree Celsius. Travis had never seen anything like it before.

DR DAVID TRAVIS: This was the largest temperature swing of this magnitude in the last thirty years.

NARRATOR: If so much could happen in such a short time, removing just one form of pollution, then it suggests that the overall effect of Global Dimming on world temperatures could be huge.
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Post: # 24789Post chadspad »

Im probably gonna really annoy everyone now and say that I dont think air travel is a bad thing from the point of awakening peoples knowledge to other countries. If travelling around the world were more difficult, people wouldnt be able to get to far-flung places or they wouldnt bother because of the effort involved. I lived in a village where half the people had never left that village and they had no idea what the rest of Britian, let-alone the rest of the world looked like. By people having holidays it allows some money to go into the local economy especially if people go out of their hotels and walk around the real parts of the country spending their money. What would happen to the places in the world that rely on tourism to survive if air travel was stopped? :shock:

And im sorry but I dont understand why people buy houses near airports and then moan about the planes that fly over - seems a little about buying one one the M25 and moaning about traffic doesnt it?

This is all just my opinion of course! :lol:

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Post: # 24790Post Muddypause »

cheesy wrote:I was a different programme Stu it was Horizon now I think of it:
I can't remember what the programe was that I saw, but the topic has also had some discussion on the radio and in the press. In terms of contrails alone, I'm not really convinced either way. I have a feeling that the real conclusion we should draw is that there is no real conclusion to draw. Some people say that there is now some suggestion that they decrease global warming, some said there isn't.

Considering it overall, it does seem rather unreasonable, given that climate change cycles are measured in hundreds or thousands of years, that we should be asked to draw conclusions from a single sample period of just three days. And don't forget that, statistically, a sample of one can have a factor of error of 100%. The transcript seems to imply that an overall trend in global warming can be accurately extrapolated from a sample area of study where, usually, there were heavy contrails. Was this representative of the rest of the globe? Is he suggesting that this temperature spike would be measurable globally? Wouldn't this imply that contrails usually cover most of the world? What about the fact that half the world, at any time, is getting no sunlight to reflect? Did he also consider the blanket effect that the contrails have, reflecting heat back down, like greenhouse gasses. And in areas that have a lot of cloud anyway, wouldn't any supposed additional reflective effect of contrails be negated? And what about the fact that you cannot get contrails up into the upper atmosphere without burning a lot of fuel which adds CO2 there, too.

There are probably all sorts of other questions that need addressing before anyone can legitimately draw a conclusion from a single three day period of unusual activity.
Last edited by Muddypause on Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post: # 24791Post Martin »

I have the misfortune to live 40 miles from Gatwick, yet suffer greatly because of it - I was here first - why should I move? :?
I agree that travel broadens the mind, but unfortunately to do so by air contributes greatly to the destruction of the natural beauty that you go to see! I've no problems with "travel" in itself, I just reckon we need to get some good brains working on using far cleaner ways of travelling.
Nowadays, a cruise is seen as a "luxury" -even more so a sailing cruise - people pay a fortune to do what I reckon we should ALL be doing - why doesn't everyone want to do it? :?
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