What is poverty?

[Eigon]

You have to be incredibly disciplined to exist on benefits - I was unemployed for two years, and I'm intelligent, and can barter for some things, but it was incredibly difficult to keep going for all that time, worrying about every bill that came in. My gran used to say that poverty was not being able to afford new shoes. Well, I couldn't afford new shoes, and just about all my clothes came from charity shops - and now I'm working, the same applies! I'm typing this on a computer I was given, when I was unable to upgrade my previous computer, which was also given to me.
For people who are not so disciplined, or don't have the sort of good friends I have, it is very easy indeed to get into debt and be totally unable to get out again.

[Marcus]

Apparently..so i heard on the TV....In america.....any family living on less than $20,000 per yer is considered as "living in poverty" !!

[grahamhobbs]

Homelessness has leaped up in America, even skilled workers and their families are becoming homeless in their thousands.

[Mrs H]

What a super question!!
This is a subject very close to my heart at the minute. We live on benefits, its tight but we're doing it. I'm not sure how those people out there can afford big tv's etc while on benefits but anyhow. It has forced us into re evaluating our lives and making things for ourselves. This afternoon the kids and I went picking blackberries that was after they spent nearly an hour puddle jumping, we have just had a lovely homemade dinner and they are all getting ready for bed. That means more to me than money.
However my in laws belief we are poor beyond belief, they can't understand how we survive, I mean how do you cope not shopping in M and S?!?!
In my eyes true poverty is what we see on the television, small children starving to death, malnourished and hanging unto life by a thread. That's poverty.

[Cligereen]

Do you know, I've often thought about this subject. We're very lucky to be OK financially, not rich by any means, but OK. But I remember seeing a programme on TV once when I lived in the UK (23+ years ago). It was in the Thatcher era (She is why we had to leave) - we couldn't pay the bills despite both working full time.

The programme was about people in UK who lived in poverty. Now, growing up we were fairly hard up but what I saw on that programme has stayed with me all these years. There was an older lady on the programme, maybe late 70s or 80. She was going around the supermarket looking for food that she could afford. She ended up buying a loaf of bread and 6 eggs to last her for a week. She could only afford one meal a day and that was a boiled egg and some of the bread. She had to stay in bed in winter to keep warm. She was painfully thin and had only one change of clothes. I can't recall now exactly what her financial circumstances were but I remember that I was convinced that she definitely was genuinely poor. That programme really upset me, so much so that I still remember it vividly. That poor soul was poor due to circumstances beyond her control.

In later years, (not in the UK) I was working on a Children's ward. There was this girl about 9 years old who had broken her leg and was with us for a few weeks. She never had any visitors and was the brightest, happiest child. She was due for discharge just before Christmas. One day a person who was in visiting somebody else came up to me and said that he knew the child from some charity work he did. It turned out that the child's father was addicted to alcohol and he spent every penny of the benefits that came into the house on drink. The mother was unable to visit because they lived about 30 miles away and could not afford a taxi (there is no public transport in that area). The charity that the man worked for used to deliver a food parcel to the family every week. It was the only food they had. When the food parcel was delivered, the man told us that the kids would just fall on the box and start eating dry bread by the handful. The details would bring tears to a stone. Anyway, we kept her in over Christmas to try to give her a better time than she would have had at home. The child was very happy to stay. We all clubbed together to buy some presents for the girl and on Christmas morning Santa had left a pile of presents at the end of her bed. The poor child had no idea what to do with the presents. We had to explain that they were for her...to keep. The first present she opened was a box of sweets. Before she took one for herself, she offered a sweet to every other patient and the staff. If you ever wanted to see a 6'4'' 14stone fella crying, it was me that morning. There was money going into that house but the children had to live off charity. Those kids were destitute in every way except somehow in love.

I will never forget that child. That happened about 15 years ago. She would be about 24 now. I wonder how she faired out in life and hope that she made it OK.

When you see things like that, especially on a personal level, it puts everything into perspective. We live a simple life because we choose to. We never know when our circumstances may revert to how they used to be, skint. I think that our own kids will be able to manage whatever financial hardships they may face later in life because they've been brought up with the know-how. It is so important to teach children how to manage on little money because you never know what life is going to throw at you in the future. I'm so lucky to be where I am now, but those early years of having little and the lessons enforced upon us by Thatcher have stuck and will always be with me.

Oh, what a little ray of sunshine I am

They don't call me Victor Meldrew for nothing!

[123sologne]

Cligegreen; some really sad stories you are telling us. I have tears in my eyes now, so I can imagine how you must have felt when that little girl offered her sweets around. And for that poor old lady; I am not surprised you never forgot that either. Both examples make me cross. This type of poverty should not exist in the Western World. How dare we go and give lessons to others when we can produce such examples! And the thing is, there are some people today living this type of hardship still. We do hear some horrible stories in the news from time to time. The UK is the 6th largest economy in the world and in the days of Thatcher's it was the 4th largest economy! How bad does that look?! Saying that the US is the 1st economy in the world and it acts in the same manner... This is all so sad. And it is probably the same in most of the top economies.

[ina]

There have been a number of very good contributions to this thread, especially around control of ones life and opportunities. One thing I think we've missed out is equality. The happiest societies are the more equal ones. If everyone around is in the same boat, people are happier. When you are sat on your sofa watching widescreen telly all day and that is all you've got and will ever get, whilst others around you 'earn' more in a year (some in a month) than you'll get in a life time, you are going to feel poor (and resentful, even if the sofa and telly was 'given' to you by the state). And frankly if the only opportunity in life you get, is to sit on a sofa in front of a telly, then to me that is poverty.

I'm sure that's true,but how do you create such a situation without resorting to the Kymer Rouge or that loony in North Korea?

Has anybody here read "The Spirit Level - Why Equality is Better for Everyone"? My favourite book at the moment - should be compulsory reading, especially for politicians! No need for Khmer Rouge or North Korean conditions. The most equal developed countries are Sweden and Japan, very different countries, but still - lowest levels of poverty, crime, early deaths, teenage pregnancies etc etc etc - you name it, they are top of the list. Unsurprisingly, US and UK are bottom of the same lists. It's not absolute poverty as such that is the problem (once you've got enough to eat, shelter etc), it's the difference between the haves and the have-nots.

The book is written by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett, their website is www.equalitytrust.org.uk

[ina]

94% of their earning gone in taxes! Whoa! And I thought the French were the worst for taxes.... They certainly have never come close to those type of taxes

I remember once hearing (when I was a child) that Astrid Lindgren had to pay in excess of 100% income tax in Sweden. I think that's perfectly fine if you already have a million squids in your savings account. See above...

[Millymollymandy]

Well you would need money in your savings account if you were paying more tax than you earned. What kind of ridiculous system is that? Nobody would live in a country like that if they took home minus money each week after working their butts off. Then they would need to go on benefits to live and feed themselves!

[Durgan]

Poverty is always bantered about by the media and politicians. Government initiatives are often opened with the statement that the poor will be affected, when trying to object to some incentive to which the public is objecting.

Food banks are the norm these days, feeding people junk food.The last two generations have no idea what it is like being poor. Any person can live beyond their means. I know because I was raised in so called poverty. Poverty destroys confidence, and this probably destroys a person more quickly than most other things. Poverty to me today is "keeping up with the Jones's". Media driven hype.

Food and cheap food is available to all in our Western societies today. A bulk food store is full of beans and all the pulses and oats, which can be cooked with little effort. Good wholesome healthy food, but people still persist on ingesting the typical Western diet, which is killing them. Simply look at the Western obesity.

I live alone, (and am not poor now,) and I live on soy beans, all the other beans, oats,milk, and home made juice. Anything else is extra. My food bill is almost nothing. Of course, I don't drink or smoke. I don't have TV and have my brain is still intact. Radio and reading and the Internet are my main source of entertainment and information, along with social intercourse.

Observation indicates that alcohol consumption is the root cause of much or most "poverty".

A few years ago I had a girlfriend with whom I went shopping for groceries. Upon leaving the store I noticed that she dumped some food (Kraft Dinner)in a bag for the food bank. I questioned her about this. We were going out to supper that night and I would spend over 100 dollars for the "entertainment". I was probably trying to get into her pants. I suggested that we stay home and we could go back into the store and I would by 100 dollars of food for the food bank. She declined. The point is people pay lip service to "poverty", but do little to alleviate such.

I must admit, I feel for the down and out. I always give the drunks on the street money when asked, with the view that, but for the Grace of God go I.

The fat and well fed seldom see misery about them. There are many people in dire straights due to self inflicted wounds. How much does society owe these people? I don't know. Unfortunately, children are subject to the mercies of their parents, but the State does a worst job, when interfering. Normal people object to and dislike exploitation of the helpless and vulnerable.

Just imagine a society where everyone was as millionaire. Most people rise to their level subject to fortune, and many are "happy" in these positions. I suggest most people live "lives of quiet desperation" to some degree. It is human nature.

[Susie]

Has anybody here read "The Spirit Level - Why Equality is Better for Everyone"? My favourite book at the moment - should be compulsory reading, especially for politicians! No need for Khmer Rouge or North Korean conditions. The most equal developed countries are Sweden and Japan, very different countries, but still - lowest levels of poverty, crime, early deaths, teenage pregnancies etc etc etc - you name it, they are top of the list. Unsurprisingly, US and UK are bottom of the same lists. It's not absolute poverty as such that is the problem (once you've got enough to eat, shelter etc), it's the difference between the haves and the have-nots.

The book is written by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett, their website is http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk

Thanks for that recommendation, it sounds great - I'll see if I can track a copy down.

[oldjerry]

I'll look for a copy of that too,but I think perhaps there is more to poverty than just lack of income,opportunity,poor housing ,education and so forth.One thing egalitarianism (however desirable that is) cant alleviate,is a paucity of spirit.Many people overcome this through belief,some find it more difficult.I reckon ,for what it's worth , that this paucity of spirit (poncey, dodgy expression but I'm no writer) stems through the total disconnect with the land experienced experienced by recent generations.What are two of the most popular past times in the UK?...gardening,and fishing..that must suggest something.The move to industrial and susequently post-industrial society has seen an ever growing state take over family and community duties,not because it does them better,but because it releases people to be more economically effective in an industrial economy.The growing influence of the state has gone hand in hand with common persons alienation from the land,the seasons,the food they eat etc.Thats why I have difficulty with the idea that a more benevolent state,be it Japan,Sweden or wherever can put things right.I believe in their natural state,people feed clothe and house their families,co-operate with neighbours to mutual benefit and naturally develop small scale social and economic communities.this isn't a prescription for a utopian future,but a suggested explaination for why even given mass leisure,greater overall wealth and rampant consumption,so many people seem so unhappy.

[ina]

this isn't a prescription for a utopian future,but a suggested explaination for why even given mass leisure,greater overall wealth and rampant consumption,so many people seem so unhappy.

Read the book - in more egalitarian societies, people are happier... Even amongst the well-to-do, there is more health and happiness in more equal societies, not just amongst the poor!

A lot of the ills of what we see as modern society has to do with the fact that "primitive" man has to fight his corner (that happens amongst "other animals" the same as with humans). The bigger the difference between alpha-people (not just males, of course) and the rest of society, the more fighting is going on. Fighting a losing battle makes people unhappy...

And yes, of course it would be nice if everybody had more connection to nature/the land, and I am sure that would contribute greatly to overall well-being! But even that costs money, if you live in a city, and can't afford the train ticket to go out to somewhere where there is land; you'd always be restricted to urban parks (definitely second best), and the 10-year waiting list for the allotment...

[boboff]

This is England '86.

I watched it, and felt that I knew it, I was 15 at the time, but the poverty was real, and different from now.

I hate getting old and feeling we had it worse, but we did.

Or is it just that I moved away from it?

Those stories of the girl in hospital made me man cry, you can't argue with that now can you?

Addiction is poverty, Addiction is lack of self respect, addiction in what ever form is what needs to be considered, how, I really just don't know.

[Susie]

I believe in their natural state,people feed clothe and house their families,co-operate with neighbours to mutual benefit and naturally develop small scale social and economic communities.this isn't a prescription for a utopian future,but a suggested explaination for why even given mass leisure,greater overall wealth and rampant consumption,so many people seem so unhappy.

You are Kropotkin!

I agree with you largely but I would see this as an effect of capitalism rather than the state: we've become disconnected from production and it leads to a strange disconnected life, with everyone in a condition of always wanting more, because the things we're sold are inauthentic and unsatisfying. (I had an irritating experience in T&*co again though so feel free to take that with a pinch of salt! ;-) ).