GM food approval

[MKG]

Thanks for your well-meant advice, Sortanormalish, but if it's all the same to you I'm going to hang on to my vintage wines and whiskeys - 12 years old or not.

I appreciate what you say (whilst not agreeing wholly) about GM, but I don't see where you're going with the water-treatment subject. Are you advocating that we should NOT treat our waste water? If not, what are we to do with it (considering that you appear to be suggesting that it is loaded with nasties)? Merely for the sake of the argument, I'm going to postulate (because I haven't actually seen any data) that no-one in the UK has died from ingesting mains water for at least a century. Certainly, there may be allergic reactions to chlorine - or any of the many other treatments used - but that's a separate issue.

Or are you saying that our water treatment doesn't go far enough (ie we should be adding further treatments to take care of those drugs you mention)?

And, while I'm here, you still haven't told me where this bit came from ...

"Granted GM is resistant even to animals. They actually avoid eating it. In labs when they are forced to eat it exclusively, they die. Do you really have any doubts about 'potential toxicity'?"

... which, if it is a summation of valid research, needs to be shown to the world so that gnarled old sceptics like me would be forced to shut their gobs.

Now, don't anyone get this all wrong - I am not supporting anything here except rationality. If I claim that I have bred a piglet with anti-gravity tendencies, I should be prepared to expose said piglet and his pedigree to the world (after I've patented him). I should have to prove what I claim. This applies as much to anti-GM activists as it does to Monsanto. Monsanto are, shall we say, not very forthcoming with their complete data sets. Nor, sometimes, are their opponents. I need only mention the perversely well-timed exposure of misrepresented climate data to demonstrate how much damage can be done to a cause by being economical with the truth. No description of "the truth" involves Chinese Whispers - there is a HUGE difference between saying that something is true and saying that your opinion is that something is true.

Sometimes, though, it's difficult to make out which of those things is being said. I'm as guilty as anyone - I often realise that I've spent a hour or so trying to convince someone of what I perceive to be the absolute truth (ie my opinion). But it's wrong. If anyone wants to take on the Monsantos and GSKs of this world, rule No. 1 is to make sure that every single thing you state as fact is undeniably, indefatigably, categorically provable. If you don't, you will either be sued or your argument will be publicly ripped to shreds. Either outcome is intensely damaging for the case against whatever you're complaining about.

Okay - time to shut up and let someone else have a go.

Mike

[contadina]

... which, if it is a summation of valid research, needs to be shown to the world so that gnarled old sceptics like me would be forced to shut their gobs.

A recent study, http://www.biolsci.org/v05p0706.htm has provided an evidential link between GM corn and organ failure in mammals. The organ failures seem to be broadly due to pesticide residues in the crops. So in short, the GM corn has been modified to resist the pesticides, but people (or rats as in the study) eating the corn haven’t.

The pesticide in question is Roundup Ready Technology from Monsanto. Farmers buy GM crop seeds that are tolerant to Roundup herbicide and then liberally spray with Roundup to keep the weeds under control. Unfortunately, contrary to Monsanto’s advertising¹, Roundup stays active in soil for up to 2 years, so nothing other than GM crops will grow in that soil.

¹ In 2007, Monsanto was convicted of false advertising over the toxicity of Roundup in a French court

[sortanormalish]

MKG, I was only expressing curiosity about water treatment. It is one of life's everyday mysteries. What goes with the chemicals and drugs? I do know that antidepressants in water ways change fish fertility, it only makes sense that it would also change the fertility of humans and poulation stats support a good hypothesis. That said, I would much rather drink treated water than un-treated! Cholera, diptheria, e-coli,...

I agree about the wine and liquor, but that isn't food, it is the honey of gods.

I don't know about your legal system, but here in America you can be sued even if you are telling the truth, defamation, loss of profit, loss of public confidence, and a few more. You have to wait for the court to pull the gag order.

There is nothing more damaging to a researcher's career than deliberate misrepresentation of data or results, as well it should be. That is why multiple models are used to validate results and multiple factors are included in a study. No reputable scientist or mathematician would even consider releasing results without considerable testing and clearly stating parameters of error. I take my professional reputation very seriously. But in the end 'truth' as determined by scientific research is nothing more than an educated opinion.

[crowsashes]

My question about the water wasn't rhetorical. Does anyone know what they have to do to water to clean it up after a trip through the sewer? I know they use a frightening amount of chlorine. It only makes sense that if they can test urine for drugs of all sorts then they either have to remove the drugs at water treatment or just leave them there. In that case, wouldn't the drugs become concentrated? Drugs do decay, but at what rate in a sewer?

im sorry i should have said im not a 100% on how the water supply is treated.

MKG - i dont think the water treatment is a wholly separate issue . if we are producing a GM crop that is resistant to pesticides and more pesticides are used to ensure a good crop then the increased use of them will eventually end up in the water supply and our rivers.

as we are discussing GM crops i think its important to see all the issues with them. the crops themselves are one issue, the impact on the environment is another i dont actually think this has been considered when creating a pesticide resistant crop. nothing good can come from a crop that is routinely soaked in potentially toxic chemicals then feed to both animals and humans.

[southeast-isher]

This might interest some of you on here:

http://www.ted.com/talks/cary_fowler_on ... _food.html

(maybe best to dowload in high quality, for free, if you have buffering issues)

The varieties of wheat, corn and rice we grow today may not thrive in a future threatened by climate change. Cary Fowler takes us inside a vast global seed bank, buried within a frozen mountain in Norway, that stores a diverse group of food-crop for whatever tomorrow may bring.

[southeast-isher]

And also this one might interest some of you on here too:

http://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_drori ... seeds.html

(maybe best to dowload in high quality, for free, if you have buffering issues)

In this brief talk from TED U 2009, Jonathan Drori encourages us to save biodiversity -- one seed at a time. Reminding us that plants support human life, he shares the vision of the Millennium Seed Bank, which has stored over 3 billion seeds to date from dwindling yet essential plant species.