Why are we generally so useless at languages?

[Alice Abbott]

Note I include my own countrymen (ie Americans) in with this!

We have just spent a couple of hours with some Dutch friends who run a campsite in the next village. They have three children aged 8, 7 and 5. Not only do this couple speak their own language, they also speak absolutely fluent English, apparently "passable" German, perfectly good French and, from the chat I had with her in that language, better Spanish than me. I know I'm a bit rusty but I did part of my college degree in Spanish! She assures me that they just grow up learning languages in Holland - more or less everyone can speak two and sometimes three. The three children can pass for English with no problem, are in French school so apparently fluent there too and, according to their mother, have no problem with playing with whatever nationality of children arrive at their campsite over the summer. She says she suspects they can speak bits of some languages that they couldn't even put a name to themselves and which she is not familiar with herself. She imagines these are probably Polish and Italian but could be some of the south eastern European languages too.

I know that the whole world wants to learn English these days but I'm surprised about how little emphasis is now put upon learning a second language in both the US and the UK. I learned Spanish because California is next to Mexico, there are many, many Mexicans in that State and it was in fact a part of Mexico until a reasonably short time ago. It isn't the same in many of the other States. I started learning French when we decided to come here as I thought it would help us fit in (and it certainly has). Mack learned some French in school and speaks some Italian courtesy of an Italian mother. The kids are soaking up French like two little sponges and are quite fearless when trying to shuffle their smallish vocabulary to fit whatever they want to say. But most English speakers I meet really struggle to express themselves in anything but their own language.

So why are many English speakers like this? Are we lazy? Do we think all foreigners should learn our language? Are we shy? Or is it because both the the UK and the US are essentially island races (don't forget that only 10% of US citizens have ever owned a passport)?

[Thomzo]

I suspect it's because so many other nations learn English as a matter of course. It isn't so important for us to learn other languages. Most people can speak English (or American if you want to be accurate) because of all the American TV, films and advertising.

What is interesting is that most foreign language films and TV in this country are dubbed into English. In many other countries they simply use subtitles. When I was staying in Holland with my cousins, years ago, most of the children's programmes were like this. No wonder they could all speak English really easily.

Cheers
Zoe

[MKG]

That's exactly it. An English-speaker can go just about anywhere in the world and find the majority of people only too ready to speak English. Where could a Dutch-speaker do that, apart from Surinam? And it isn't just laziness. A non-English speaker needs only to learn English to be understood all over the world. Which second language should an English-speaker choose? Learn French, and you'll still have to speak English in China. Chinese itself is a bit restrictive, geographically. Spanish would be better, but you'd still be at a loss in Germany or Canada (where your French may come in handy, but your Dutch will be a waste of time). To get the same benefit a non-English speaker gains by learning solely English, an English speaker would need fluency in a couple of dozen languages.

Having said that, the number of British people who choose to live abroad but refuse to make even the slightest attempt to learn the language really gets my goat. When we lived in the Netherlands, my 5-year old daughter learned Dutch (as did I, I hasten to add). It's the kind of thing which is appreciated and works much better than the too-often seen habit of saying the same thing again in English, only slower and louder.

Mike

[red]

Having said that, the number of British people who choose to live abroad but refuse to make even the slightest attempt to learn the language really gets my goat. When we lived in the Netherlands, my 5-year old daughter learned Dutch (as did I, I hasten to add). It's the kind of thing which is appreciated and works much better than the too-often seen habit of saying the same thing again in English, only slower and louder.

ah yes - I hate that too. I figure if you move to a country, you ought to learn the local language.

Brits are really bad at learning other languages.. not because we are unable, but somehow its not given priority - that and as already said a confusion over which language to learn.

i reckon the most logical is to learn the language of the next nearest country.. so that's France for me. But something Brits are also awful over is learning their own languages.. ie Welsh and Gaelic as well as English...

It's on my bucket list to learn a bit more welsh (other than the phrases i know already.. hello, goodbye, yuk, and put the kettle on....)

[MKG]

I went to Spain on holiday and witnessed an increasingly irate Englishman asking for hot water to refill his teapot and, when no-one behind the counter understood him (at least, pretended not to), he said it louder ... and louder ... and louder, now with gesticulations. Finally, he got there - "Agua, agua" said our fine-feathered Brit. Problem was, we were on our way back from Spain and were in the middle of France at the time.

Mike

[Millymollymandy]

What is interesting is that most foreign language films and TV in this country are dubbed into English. In many other countries they simply use subtitles. When I was staying in Holland with my cousins, years ago, most of the children's programmes were like this. No wonder they could all speak English really easily.

Cheers
Zoe

I hadn't noticed the dubbing on UK TV, only subtitles, but in France everything foreign is dubbed which makes for difficulty if you are trying to learn French! You need to watch how their mouths move. Anyway the French are completely rubbish at languages too and freely admit it.

In the Netherlands they get BBC1 & 2 as well as all the usual American comedies and films etc on Dutch TV in VO with Dutch subtitles. I did find when I lived there that the majority of people over about 40 didn't speak any or much English, it was the younger generation who were fluent.

If we had been taught how to actually speak and converse in French (or whatever language) at school instead of the huge emphasis on grammar and written language (which made the subject so boring) we might have had more chance. But then again, with no opportunity to speak French outside of the classroom, who knows? All the French people that I know who learnt English at school had promptly forgotten it all apart from a few words, just like I had with French!

[Green Aura]

I think there's a certain arrogance on the part of English speaking nations, that they can use their own language and be understood (often by raising their voice and speaking sslloowwllyy - spot the incunciation there ). There also seems to be the prevailing notion that the locals (particularly in Wales) speak English anyway, and only revert to their native language when an English-speaking person enters the room. (I've always wondered if they have some sort of English detecting bell or radar to warn them ).

Another problem is we're really crap at teaching languages in British schools (I mean the syllabus not the teachers!) - we had to learn French when I was at school, although there was a certain snobbery about a third language - the bright ones got put in Latin, the middlers - german, and the less able - something called speech and drama. So we were taught at a fairly young age that dead languages are worth more than living ones! By the time my gal was at senior school she had a choice of either French or German - how do you choose?

And finally, I love learning languages and pick them up quite quickly. I have a smattering of French, Spanish and Welsh. But I rarely get any chance to practice any of them so I lose the vocabulary quite quickly. And somehow it feels worse to bugger up someone else's language than not attempt it. So I fall back into just speaking English - which is daft I know.

I'm hoping to embark soon on learning Scottish Gaelic. Hopefully I won't have the same problem as there are a lot of native Gaelic speakers round here.

[Jandra]

I know the perfect way to learn languages: go sing in a choir with international repertoire and really pay attention to the lyrics. I've sung in Latin, English, French, Catalan, Italian, Russian, Finnish, German, Hungarian...

By the way: if English is the only language you need to get by internationally, then why do the Dutch speak the other languages? English isn't as universal as the English speaking people think, maybe. Try speaking English to a French person, that's not difficult. Try to understand their 'English' reply... now THAT's a challenge

By the way, I think that the ability of the Dutch to converse in other languages is slightly overrated. The thing is, as a foreigner you only get to speak to those Dutch people who can actually communicate in the foreign language. That's a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Well, I love languages and am fluent in several and anywhere I can pick up some words in a foreign language, on vacation, from choral music or from people I meet, I soak it up like a spunge. It's fun.

Jandra

[Graye]

I have to agree that English speakers generally don't often bother to learn the languages of the countries they live in. Also that the language teaching methods in school are not up to much anyway. I'm not sure why aren't good at languages - I suppose it's all down to not really needing them as more and more people want to try out their English. But it's a pity we don't try more as it makes us look arrogant and sometimes a bit stupid, especially when living in another country.

I did GCSE Latin (for some reason I can remember how to conjucate the verb to fight and not a lot else) A level French (which promptly disappeared and had to be relearned when we started living in France, only the most arcane little odds and ends resurfacing from some hidden corner of my brain every now and again). I then lived in Sweden for a couple of years and learned Swedish by speaking to customers in the shop I worked in. Guess what? My Swedish, despite not speaking it in years, is still much better than either of the first two! I learned Spanish in the same way and it remains my foreign language "of choice", I still resort to Spanish words if I can't find the appropriate one in French, which is in fact pretty pointless, because as was pointed out earlier, the French aren't that good at languages either, and despite both being Latin languages they seem incomprehensible to each other!

When my son was younger he did a lot of cycle racing, particularly in Holland. I'm sorry to say neither of us learned any Dutch, other than the basic words. It's strange that you almost feel as though you should be understaning Dutch anyway, something to do with the cadence I suppose. It seemed that more or less everyone, of all ages, communicated with us in English so we were enccouraged to by lazy I suppose.

I once cringed with embarrassment at the typical Brit getting louder and louder as the waiter in a Chinese restaurant in southern Spain couldn't grasp the concept of putting blackcurrant cordial (not something you encounter in Spain anyway) into a pint of lager. Even I struggled with his very broad northern English accent and he expected a Chinese guy in Spain to understand exactly what he wanted (he began by asking for a lager top and only resorted to describing the contents when he got nowhere with that) and complained very loudly to anyone within earshot when he didn't. I'm sorry to say I was NOT tempted to help him out!

We also have a Dutch friend in this little village in France. Her ability to switch from one language to another amazes me. And her two dogs are trilingual, they obey various orders in Dutch, French AND English!

[red]

By the way, I think that the ability of the Dutch to converse in other languages is slightly overrated. The thing is, as a foreigner you only get to speak to those Dutch people who can actually communicate in the foreign language. That's a self-fulfilling prophesy.

hmm I dunno - when I was holidaying in the Netherlands, I once had to ask a guy sweeping the floor at the ferry port how the telephone worked, and he told me, in English... it's very unlikely someone in that job in the UK would be able to converse in another language other than their first language.

Some Dutch friends of mine said that everyone speaks English so well as parents tend to say things in English in front of their kids when they did not want them to know what was said! Also they watched a lot of British TV, saying it was better than Dutch.

What I did find when I was there, was that I could never try to use the language, because everyone switched to English as soon as I started. That and i had a lot of trouble making the chhh sound (as in Schipol i think) just as I have trouble with the same sound in Welsh...so as soon as I stumbled.. they would switch. so ironically, I got a slightly better understanding of written Dutch than spoken, as I could study the road signs, menus, museum notices etc..

but ik spreek geen nederlands

[sleepyowl]

Second Languages that would be the most important for English people to learn are:
Spanish
Hindi
Mandarin
French

those are the next 4 most commonly spoken languaged in the world

[Graye]

Really? I would have thought French was way down the list. After all where is it spoken but France, parts of Canada and a couple of smallish nations in Africa? Surely the likes of Bengali, Portuguese (think of Brazil) and Russian might be high up there too?

[red]

Really? I would have thought French was way down the list. After all where is it spoken but France, parts of Canada and a couple of smallish nations in Africa? Surely the likes of Bengali, Portuguese (think of Brazil) and Russian might be high up there too?

yeh French does not feature in the top tenof spoken languages

[Graye]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 94708.html

Putting aside most of the content of this article, it seems to be a good illustration of what has been discussed. Here is a BBC reporter going to a GERMAN political meeting in GERMANY and having the cheek to ask his questions in ENGLISH. Why on earth should this politician be expected to answer a question in his own country and at his own press conference in a foreign language? Don't the BBC have reporters able to ask their questions in anything but English? It amused me that he was "forced" to find a translator. Surely he should have taken one with him if he was so woefully inadequate? Or is this just another example of British arrogance?

[sleepyowl]

I must have been misinformed about French then, pub facts & all that