In pursuit of the Selfsufficientish Laundry

[Shirley]

you all seem very clever in terms of ph and soap...


so......... can anyone help with this.

Our water is very acidic... ph 5.5 I think. I used a natural conditioner (rosemary) which is about a year old.......... in a rare bath (rather than a shower) and emerged from the bath with raging red skin around hairline, neckline and back...

My question is... could it (given the age of the natural conditioner) be the age of the conditioner that caused this reaction, or could it be the water itself that has caused the problem. Does soap etc give some sort of reaction with acidic water?

It's been nearly 2 weeks since that incident with the conditioner... and my back is still extremely sore and itchy.. I do hope that someone can help....

[ina]

That sounds awful! Is there anything in the conditioner (apart from rosemary) that could have caused it? Did you use it before you moved to Scotland, where the water was less acidic?

As far as I know, skin has naturally about pH 5.5, so that in itself can't really have caused any trouble.

[Wombat]

Dunno Shirlz!

When you say raging red skin, are you talking about an itchy hive-like reaction? If so it sounds like an allergy of some description, but mate, you have me stumped!

Nev

[Shirley]

ingredients of the conditioner :

aqua (water from the lake district), cetearyl alcohol (coconut based wax), cetrimonium chloride (vegetable based conditioning agent), Brassica Campestris, Rosemarinus Officianalis (rosemary oil), Melaleuca alternifolia, Chlorphyllin - copper complex (natural colour)

I'm not a chemist so don't know what these might do in conjunction with acidic water... I know that our water leaves a blue stain on the sink and the water turns blue with the addition of any soap due to the high copper content (which I assume is caused by the acidic water stripping the copper water pipes??)

Yes, Ina, I used it in Herefordshire with no problems at all... the conditioner is old though, and it's the bottom of the bottle so I wondered whether this might be a reason too.

Nev... more dry and itchy now, but sore too. Not like hives. I did take pics but deleted them very quickly The initial redness has subsided on the hairline and neck etc...

Certainly something in the water is not agreeing with my skin... and that of the rest of my family.... we are still waiting for a water filter to be fitted... but have to wait for the official go-ahead from our solicitor (long story) - will be chasing up again on Monday.

[Millymollymandy]

Acetic acid is pretty volatile so even in quite high concentrations it buggers off pretty damned quick once it's in the air. While I think of it, a traditional indian treatment for removing turmeric stains is to rinse them in weak lemon juice and air dry in direct sunlight. It works too, I tried it.

Same thing with toothpaste (obviously a white one!). That works too but I've no idea what is in toothpaste.

[Wombat]

If it is something soluble, a filter won't help - unless it is a reverse osmosis unit!

Nev

[Shirley]

hmmm not sure what type of filter, but an expert (or should that be an ex-spurt if he's dealing with water problems) has recommended something that is going to cost rather a lot of money - I think it was about £450 that was quoted.

I'll have to look at the paperwork and see... it involved two filters I think... one with a bulb and one with stuff in it... I'm so technical aren't I - will have a look and see what the quotation says.

[hedgewizard]

Nothing leaps out at me from the list of ingredients. If you ring the water company (assuming it's mains water) they'll send someone round to take a sample - and if you're not happy with what they tell you, send a sample to the nearest Public Analyst Lab, either yourself or through your local environmental services department. Be prepared to tell them the conditioner you used.

What you have described sounds more like a mild chemical burn than an allergy and no, the pH of the water alone couldn't cause that. Some kind of reaction with the conditioner is possible I suppose since they may not test down that low - but if you ring them and ask for their medical officer they'll soon tell you. My bet is that it was the water, though.

The copper in the water could well be caused by the water acidity eating away at copper piping. The absolute minimum permitted pH for water in Scotland is 5.5, and anything lower means equipment failure at the plant.

In the meantime, I'd suggest throwing a tablespoon of bicarb into your bathwater before you get it, to bring the pH back up. Good luck!

[The Chili Monster]

Hi all
Been reading through the posts here. Remember from my studies that Copper (II) compounds are blue (it's to do with the d electrons that are involved in bonding). It's not unheard of for acidic parts in water to react with pipes -this is commonly observed in iron pipes (get rust-coloured water)!
This can be remedied with a filter. I'm guessing that a similar device is employed to deal with copper contamination.
The natural pH of skin is 5.5 and so it's unlikely that the pH of the water is to blame in this instance. However, copper allergies sometimes manifest themselves as rashes and I noticed another Copper product (Chlorphyllin - copper complex ) lurking on the ingredients list -perhaps it's just a copper overload? However, for peace of mind I'd take Hedgewizard's advice (he's a pharmacist after all) and check out getting the water tested. I'd also visit the doctor if these symptoms are persisting after this length of time, it could all still be just an unhappy coincidence.
By the way, Nev's right -filtration alone will not serve to remove a solute but an electrocell attached to filter would. alternatively something may be added to precipitate out the copper so that it would no longer be in solution.
On a brighter note copper compounds have anti-fungal properties and have long been used in agriculture to kill slugs.

[Millymollymandy]

Look on the bright side Shirlz - you're unlikely to catch leaf curl or blight now!

[Shirley]

Thanks everyone....

We are on a private water supply here - we've had the water tested but I'm not sure that we have received the full details... the ph was given to us over the phone... must ring the guy and chase for the full report. We had had a bacteria test done before we moved in and that showed that there were coliforms in the water (a well - which the previous occupier used to treat by chucking some milton down the well from time to time)

The water supply is shared with our neighbours - they have water tanks rather than a direct supply like ours.. We sometimes find bits of beetle and flies legs coming through the tap (scrummy!)

Anyway - the good news is that I've got some cream that is starting to make things feel a bit better - it's actually a face cream but hey.... I'll just end up with a beautiful back and a scaggy face - but as M3 says... no leaf curl or blight

Will remember to use the bicarb next time I have a bath... perhaps a good idea to use that for the kids too.

I knew I would get good info on here - you guys rock

[hedgewizard]

As a caveat, remember that although the bicarb will raise the pH it won't remove the copper from solution. If that's your problem some types of filter will do it.

Hmmm... if it's a copper allergy I'd expect it to be getting gradually worse as time goes on. Get that report, as you need to be sure it's safe to drink... but provided it is then you might consider getting a homeopath to conjure you a copper-desensitising preparation. Not my bag.

Well water *sighs*. I can see us having to go that way in a few years. Water catchment is something we're going to have to take a serious look at but for now we're overloaded trying to give the gardens the air of something that's been done on purpose!

Oh, since this is a laundry thread - I've planned to have a little round piece cut into the lawn and screened off with baffles of edible hedge. I want to seed in some lawn chamomile in the circular bit, and put some mesh or something down for it to grow through so that it doesn't degenerate into quagmire in the winter. It's the mesh that's giving me a headache - anyone got any suggestions as to what might work?

[Shirley]

Thanks again Hedgie

Hmmm how big a circle in your lawn?? I want to sow some chamomile too actually. I love the word association there - laundry to lawn lol....

Won't the risk of quagmire be much reduced if it isn't walked on when it's wet??

[ina]

I somehow got the idea that he might want this circle of chamomile lawn for the clothes drier? In which case it would be difficult to avoid walking on it whenever it's wet... It would look a lot nicer than my circle of concrete, too!

We've got some pretty stiff wiremesh in the shed that's got a meshsize of about 1x1cm - no idea what it's called, but it would probably do fine for the lawn. No idea how long it would last; it would probably rust away after a few seasons. Or you could try that tree protector mesh - plastic, won't rot, but won't be quite as strong, either.

[Shirley]

if it's for a clothes drier then surely the ground wouldn't be sopping... as you don't hang clothes out to dry if it's raining - do you?? Unless it is a new fangled way of washing them... sprinkle with soapnut granules and leave out in the rain

I was thinking of that wire mesh stuff you mention but didn't know what to call it either... David says there is something else that is a plastic stuff... that you put on unstable ground to stop it washing away... not sure if that would do the trick?