Land shairing

[evelyn]

I think this a brill idea.

I am going to get my housing trust to put all the abandoned gardens on the estate in to this, allotments are in short supply and although none of the gardens are full lotty size they are big enough to grow loads of stuff.

Eve

[mrsflibble]

sounds interesting. would you get a contract like with a lottie?

[the.fee.fairy]

I saw a thing about this on River Cottage.

It looks like a great idea, as long as you get a decent, trustworthy person.

And, in my case, someone who didn't mind having to clear up doggy do occasionally when we miss a bit...

[evelyn]

Thankfuly i dont have to deal with the ins and outs of it all, i just have to come up with or pinch the idea and then pich it to 142 wonderfull people who make it happen, they are a great bunch and very keen on green issues and sustainability in the community.

I have found about 30 large ish orphend gardens just on my estate and they are causing a problem for residents because they are used as cut through's and for fly tipping, i would much rather see veg growing on these plots than continue to put up with the tipping and the criminal eliment using them to escape the police.

Regarding security, the residents fenced off the gardens years ago leaving the top end to turn into jungle, most of the gardens back onto ally ways so are accesable, and the land belongs to the trust so there are no legal issues.

Leass and rent, this is something that dose need sortig out but as we are in the prosess of opening up a large plot for lotties and maybe another for a community small holding i would think that we will use the same leass agreement.

Eve

[Stonehead]

People are too selfish, greedy and stupid for it to succeed. And yes, I'm speaking from experience. We looked into sharing some of the land on our croft a while ago, but without exception everyone wanted ownership and rights over the land.

I was thinking of something like two or three year's use in return for a share of fruit/veg, then renew after that. Or two to three years' to keep livestock, in return for meat or milk. But people repeatedly made it clear they wouldn't put the effort and money into working the land unless they were given ownership of the land.

It was the same when we looked at making our cottage available—live there rent-free in return for doing it up. Not on your nelly, people wanted the cottage signed over to them, again because they had to have ownership and rights over it.

Basically, people wanted us to give them the land (and cottage) for nothing. And I was left with the strong suspicion that, while growing veg may have had a bit of a short term appeal, the real intent was to sell the land (and cottage) on.

Landshare is a nice idea, but a lot of people will be shouting "gimme, gimme, mine, mine".

[evelyn]

We would have short term land rental agreements and take a weekley rent, not much just a £ or so.

Eve

[Green Aura]

Are you anywhere near Ashton under Lyne, Eve?

[evelyn]

Yep, i am in South Manchester about 20 mins away.

Eve

[Green Aura]

You're probably too far away. My garden is up for grabs. I did post it a few weeks ago

http://www.selfsufficientish.com/forum/ ... &sk=t&sd=a

Don't know if that's how you do links - hope it works.

[DominicJ]

But by the same deal, you want someone to rebuild your house for free, or landscape your garden for free.

No one is going to spend 10, 20, 30k doing up a cottage on the promise that they can live in it rent free for a bit.
At the very least theyre going to want a timetable saying x must be done by y and you can live in the house rent free till z.
Same goes for land, I wouldnt take on a jungle if I could be thrown off without warning.
I might buy it, I might take it on a long term lease, or even a short term lease depending on condition.

[Stonehead]

We were not trying to get the croft landscaped for free, nor trying to get the cottage done up for free. We had more land that we could use and a cottage that we only use as a wood store. At the same time, a lot of people say they can't get land or housing.

It seemed to us that we could make a difference to someone by making available something that we were not using, and doing it in such a way that it would be to mutual advantage.

I didn't go into specific details as the post would have dragged on, but there would have been a legal contract setting out terms, timespans etc etc. It wasn't just an ad hoc, spur of the moment, vague agreement. (And what's wrong with spending £45,000 to get a minimum of 12 years in a two-bed cottage with use of a stable and part of a field? That's £312 a month when current rentals are at least two to three times that. And before someone says how do you come up with the capital, we know a lot of people with a decent chunk of equity in a mortgaged house but who are having problems with meeting climbing mortgage payments. It was a friend in this position that sparked the idea—although she's since married a bloke with his own home.)

But as you've just shown, cultural attitudes are firmly against sharing and far too many people want it all for themselves.

Anyway, I'm not going to say anything further on this as I've heard it and said it before, except to say that Land Sharing is going to run into the same rocks. How many people are really going to be prepared to share their gardens and land given these attitudes? We're certainly not.

[snapdragon]

Stoney - looks like the people after your land were greedy not homeless
I saw a TV programme last week ish (a rare occurance) showing people in Todmorden growing edibles in any spare bit of land they could find - including parks and council flower beds - this now has council blessing and the whole community are joining in.

I am considering talking to the Mission church people (about 100 metres from my house) they have a large grass area round the church which is mown but not used for anything as there is no churchyard

Just not sure if they'll let a pagan dig their ground

[DominicJ]

For me, quite a lot is wrong with that, as you said, I dont know the specifics, but I can see a situation where that deal is massivly slanted in either parties favour.
Its not unrealistic to say you may have expected to get far more than anyone else was willing to give, theres nothing wrong with that, its quite normal.
But it certainly doesnt mean that everyone but you is evil and selfish because they didnt agree with your terms.

If I went into a bank to ask for 45k to do up a cottage I didnt own, they'd laugh me out the building. I could fund it out of income/not paying rent, but then it might take 4 years to do up, in which I'm living in a building site, still, 8 years in a very nice cottage rent "free" is a good deal, but what if I need to move, it would be a great project for me personaly now, but in 5 years when I want kids?
**********
Note, not calling you one, just using an example
**********
What if your a paranoid nosey old woman who's going to drop in every day and look around when I'm not there

From your PoV
What if I skimp on the fittings, what If I want a blue shower room and you want a pink bathroom, what if I stop maintaining it after 5 years, its not mine, why should I care if the roof only has 8 years left in it or a damp course breaks.

Its a, as you said, massivly long term commitment, heavily financed by one party early(renovation costs), and the other later(no rent). People who are going to be attracted by a no rent situation are quite likely to be in no situation to undertake any big building work
Its a minefield.
Its possible, with the right people, a lot of negociation, foreplanning and flexibility, its possibly a great idea.

But its seriously abnormal, and that means trouble.

[evelyn]

Well well this thred is getting a little heated.

I had my meeting today with the land lord, it went very well indeed, i have been asked to mark up on a map where the abandoned gardens are, and we have agreed to start by offering 3 plots and see how it goes for 6 months if it works out well for all involved more will be made available, i know 3 plots is not much to start off with but atleast its a start.

A leagle bod is looking for the right short term lease, then it has to go to the trusts board so with a bit of luck we will advertise the plots in a few months.

Eve

[jim]

Dear Evelyn,
Don't know whether my encouragement is worth anything, but I'm glad to see that you're still going for it! There are lots of people who'll say that you can't get there from here when you need directions, they might be right BUT ......

Keep it up! If you don't try you won't get there!

Love and Peace
Jim