Uncontested capitalism.

[silver8]

There are so many postive ways at looking at life that I strongly identify with - selfsufficientish,downsizing,conservation,recycling,organic,slow food movement and so on.
But although im getting lots of personal satisfaction living my life in this way also think, that looking at the bigger picture, its impact is futire.Its got no political clout.Used to have the communist bloc and powerful trade unions that acted as a restraint to the extremes of capitalism.Now capitalism goes uncontested and if unchallenged will destroy the planet.
Whats the answer?

[dibnah]

I think that the major factor is that in the future it will be through necessity and not ethical or pollitical choice that will stear people towards self-sufficiency.

[Wombat]

Back when I was OHS Coorindator at a Sydney Glass Packaging Manufacturer, we were trying to put in a housekeeping and hygeine program, becuase we were supplying to the food industry. The lady in charge put a presentation to a cross section of managers, supervisors, workers and union personnel, with a video and stuff. When she finished and asked for comment. Then all of the reasons came out why it wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't work.

Sitting in the corner was a little Italian guy, a customer, with not good english skills. After about 15 minutes of this he stood up and said, in effect, that if you DON'T do this, not only will you lose our custom, you will lose all your food industry customers, and sat down.

After the stunned silence lifed the suggestions of how we could make it work started to come in.

The idea has to be gotten across that this is not either/or this is the way we must go. Unfortunately there are powerful vested interests working against this.......

Nev

[Boots]

Ultimately, I think it comes down to kids. Unfortunately, if they don't meet other like-minded souls when they are pushed into socialising during their school years, whatever ideals and values you have shared with them are difficult for them to maintain.

There is a young girl I know, who has been raised in a totally organic home due to allergies. She is one of 3 children and the whole family suffers from different allergies, that make meal time very difficult. The family also run an organic produce business, because - well, I guess they became good at producing what they were unable to buy.

They live very simply and continue to impress me. They have no TV and the kids are all keen readers and very bright academically. They don't buy magazines or papers because of the inks used in printing.

They are really lovely kids, all of them. Well mannered, communicative and friendly. Unfortunately, the enviro-choices their parents have made have become 'hassles' at school. Others don't understand, and are quite negative about their lifestyle. So much so, that even the kids themselves now sigh and feel negative about their lunches, and the forethought needed to plan a school excursion to the city or the limitations they must respect if they want to stay well.

My daughter outgrew/desensitised to her allergies experienced as a young child by about age 10, but does remember what went into it and how it felt not to be able to join in some things. When her and this young girl made friends, a lot changed for both them, because there was a shared understanding that no longer meant it was one person 'sticking out looking odd'. That shared understanding grew as the two began attending excursions together, thinking of each other and generally accepting each others basic needs. They talked about it with each other and with others.

I think I have seen a positive change from them coming together. I think they have shared understanding not only with other kids, but also teachers, and other adults in the community. The tuckshop lady made a heck of a lof of racket when asked to replace certain foods with alternatives, but now she has no problem with it - maybe because she actually now feels that she too is meeting a need?

As long as we have kids in this world, nothing is futile. It's what we share with them that will change things I think. If we raise them with futility and negativity, then they will offer that to the world in the form of dollar driven development.

I draw great hope from the fact that kids don't vote - yet.

[adekun]

I have been thinking about Capitalism very deeply over the past year. Perhaps it's greed that should be contested.

[silver8]

Still think there is an exciting movement growing at the moment which this site is part off. But lacks a poltical perspective. Lets,for example,be honest about Christmas.What we have just seen is not a celebration of the birth of Christ but a celebration of capitalism. Consumerism out of control and gluttony.Forget 1984 we are living in Zardoz.

[Muddypause]

Still think there is an exciting movement growing at the moment which this site is part off. But lacks a poltical perspective.

Well I do me best, mate.

Lets,for example,be honest about Christmas.What we have just seen is not a celebration of the birth of Christ but a celebration of capitalism.

But don't forget that Christ was given some pretty expensive birthday presents. Funny how we never heard anything more about the gold, isn't it? What did he do with that? I think we should be told.

Consumerism out of control and gluttony.

Indeedy. Upon the alter of consumer choice we shall sacrifice the world.

[Chickpea]

Ought to look it up really but I recollect something along the lines of "Mary treasured all these things and pondered them in her heart". Wulf, can you help us out?

[Martin]

we are at present supposedly in a "strong" economic position - all the sums are working! - the problem is that to make the sums work we have to do unutterably stupid things like making the economy grow all the time - make more, consume more, sell more..........import cheap labour, have more babies............
We need to do less, consume less, travel less - and grasp the nettle that the world is grossly overpopulated, and is one of the major root causes of our problems!

[Muddypause]

Listeners may be relieved to know that Martin and I are in perfect accord on this.

But I'm gonna take issue with the original precept that sorting out your own values is politically futile. Quite the contrary; fundamentally, that is all we can do. Anyone with ambitions to force values and beliefs upon others is a tyrant, and look what happens to them.

And, most importantly, I don't believe that one person making a change or stating a view is trivial. It is often compared to a drop in the ocean, as if that invalidated it. For example, people often say, in exasperation or resignation, that one person using the car less, or turning the tap off more, is not going to make any appreciable difference to anything. But look at it the other way round; it is exactly that thinking that got us into this mess in the first place - people thinking that their extra car journey, or their tap left running won't make a difference. It has.

[Annpan]

The fact that Christmas, Easter, Halloween, etc have become highly comerciallised is a passing fad they are all, at their root, pagan-type fesivals. ( I say pagan type as all religions celebrate them in one way or another and I don't know the facts of paganism)

Christmas celebrating mid-winter, and the fertility of the land even in the darkest days - I don't remember there being a fir tree covered in lights in the stable at bethlehem.
Easter celebrating fertility/ regeneration. My OH says he read a bible story about all the chicks and bunnys coming to rescue jesus from behind the giant egg that had rolled infront of his tomb!!! I think he was being sarcastic.
Halloween the last harvest.

All these festivals are centred around food and the family. Yes they have become too commercial but thay will come and go and on hard times we will all remember the core ideals.

As for the world being over populated a friend of mine once urged me to have children because in his words "western society is 'devoluting' The white trash are having 4x more babies than educated people so in a few decades we will live in a world of 'crisps for tea' people who don't give a s***". I'm not saying that is a reason to have children, but he's got a point.

If we are all just a drop in the ocean what do 6 billion drops actually look like a bathful? a swimming pool? the medeteranian? this site must at least make up at least an eggcup full maybe even a cupfull

Ann

[Boots]

Muddy:

Listeners may be relieved to know that Martin and I are in perfect accord on this.

Well, that's no bloody fun, is it?

[Jack]

Gidday

Well some bloody deep thoughts here.

Yes those festivals are being used as if they are pagan. Only Easter is a real Christian event as it is the only one that we are told to celebrate and we are told to celebrate the death of Christ which is the important thing.

And seein we are on to that sorta subject and using the Bible as a very good example, if you read it you will see that the greatest growth of Christianity in all history went on, not when everyone went to Church or there were great teams of preachers on the streets, but thousands a day were drawn into the group by their example. They shared their food and ate together and prayed together and that is what brought outsiders in.

The Church seems to have forgatten that and are trying too hard to please others while neglecting their own.

So what I am saying is, this site and others like it can have more effect and a greater clout that any political movement. We need to keep sharing, our ideas and ways of growing good healthy food, and enjoying a good healthy lifestyle and as more people see that it is better and that we are as a group achieving a greater wellbeing in ourselves and our families more and more people will want to join in and also share what we have.

Well that's my rant for the day.

[phoenixangel]

not wishing to get into a religious debate (especially as that is not what this topic is really about) but easter is also based on a pagan festival called Ostara, it's one of the spring festivals, a celebration of the fertility sweeping the land through both animals and plants, hence the rabbits, and eggs, they are fertility symbols. Thats is not of course to say that the christian festival of easter is any less valid, just that it is also a pagan event.

On the subject of capitalism, I agree that xmas has definitely become far too much about expensive presents. While both giving and recieving presents is nice, I think handmade gifts are the nicest ones as time and effort has obviously gone into it, or at least something small that some real thought has gone into. My favorite thing is just getting together with friends, eating, drinking and having a laugh :)

[Sarahcook]

Ought to look it up really but I recollect something along the lines of "Mary treasured all these things and pondered them in her heart". Wulf, can you help us out?

Luk 2:19 But Mary kept all these things, and pondered [them] in her heart.

This was after the shepherds, not after the kings. After all, if the poorest men from the fields came busting in when you had just given birth, saying angels had told them this baby would be a king, you'd have a bit to think on as well!

The Kings/Wise men came much later, and it is believed that the gold enabled the Holy Family to escape to Egypt when Herod ordered the Slaughter of the Innocents. In terms of why he was given what he was given, the popular thinking is...

The gold was because he would be a king.
The frankinsense because he would be a priest.
The myrrh because he would die.


Sarah