Legal knowledge anyone?

[Green Aura]

Does anyone know anything about property law - particularly Scottish law. We have a dispute in our village over an area of communal property. I'm not sure I want to go into detail here but if anyone wants more details they can pm me. Briefly a communally owned area which is open to the public has been deemed unsafe.

My question is - can we get insurance for this area - it's outside (I've read stuff online about communal areas in flats etc but I'm not sure if this would apply). If we can get insurance then I think they would give us clear instructions about what we need to do to make them safe/insured.

The other thing I would be interested to know is if appropriate action is not taken to make a public area safe, as some of us want, is there anyway we can distance ourselves from any liability?

Sorry to be a bit vague, but emotions seem to be running a bit high here and of course this is a fairly public forum.

[Clara]

I think my first port of call would be whatever authority or public service has deemed the area unsafe - presumably if they're in a position to say what is unsafe, they are also in a position to say what is safe and what kind of liability you have as communal owners and how to get insured against that.

When you say it is communally owned, do you mean it is communally OWNED or that it is common ground? If something is communally owned I'd have thought that there would have to be some sort of management committee already in place (as happens when several people share a freehold in England), which will have to negotiate amongst itself what happens. Of course if you find that it is only a minority who want to do something about it then I would make my position very clear and in writing (poss. solicitors letter?), so that should anything happen to a member of the public you will have a record of that. I don't know if that would hold any weight in court but it would be better than doing nothing.

[Green Aura]

The council has deemed it unsafe, and it's now public record.

The land is owned by us, so our liability is total - we could potentially lose everything. Previous attempts at a committee (long before our time here) ended in acrimony so no-one will agree to setting up another.

A neighbour consulted his solicitor and was told that he can't mitigate liability by a letter, so I've not tried. We managed to postpone things by waiting to see if the council would adopt the area, but they've refused so it's back down to us now. We can't put a sign up saying the area is unsafe, because that publicises our liability and doesn't stop it.

I think that some of the villagers are working on the premise that because no-one has sued, no-one will. A lovely idea but not wholly realistic. There are also some long-standing divisions between various people, so it looks like they say no because others have said yes.

The joys of small village life!

[Annpan]

Most groups with communal areas have a factor who manages the shared land for an annual fee from each of the owners - this includes the insurance - in a tenement in Glasgow we use to pay £12 per month to the factor. The factor also takes on the duty of repairs, etc and bills the owners for any work carried out.

I don't know if this only exists in Scotland - I have only ever lived in Scotland.

Without knowing what it is, it is difficult to comment - I would imagine that some kind of reasonable assumption of the publics common-sense.... or...... what if you put up a sign stating 'Dangerous ground - enter at your own risk' - There is no trespass Law in Scotland so you can't keep people off of it (I don't think)

[John Headstrong]

what is dangerous about this land / property ?

is it a building that is dangerous ?

[Clara]

Well you might be able to tell that I'm poorly sick today because I'm surfing the net looking for information about communal land in scotland....

Anyhow I found a reference to something similar and I was wondering whether the environmental health department might help.

Here's what I read

"If communal land, for example, a shared drying green, is kept in a state which poses a nuisance or danger, the environmental health department can serve a notice on the owner/s of the land, requiring them to take steps to maintain the land properly within a given time period."

Now that sounds a bit scary, but in a way having had the place officially deemed unsafe might be to your (i.e. the people who want to do something about it) advantage. Either it can be pointed out to people that is not something they can choose to ignore any longer because regardless of whether someone has an accident or not they have certain responsibilities in law or the EHD could be given a nudge (anonymously) to force the issue for them.

In any case I'd probably get on to the CAB to see if a) there are ways around having to deal with the nay-sayers and b) there are grants that can be applied for to help necessary works be done.

On the other hand you could just put a big for sale sign on the area and then see who takes more of an interest in their communal ownership

[Green Aura]

Thanks, Clara I'll have a look and see what I can find about that - sounds like a possible solution. Sorry to hear you're unwell.

John, it involves some concrete steps and a path which are uneven, sloping and which get very slippery and hazardous, particularly in bad weather. The problem is that, due to the factions within the village, no-one will agree what to do to make them safe - or stump up any money. The cheapest option would be to dig them out and grass it over - we wouldn't be liable for someone slipping on a grass slope, just the path and steps because it constitutes a footpath. Even if we fence it off and sign it as unsafe we're still liable!

No factor, Ann, and no committee, and not much chance of getting one I think. I was actually against a committee, because the people pushing for it couldn't define what role it would have and seemed to want to give it all sorts of powers which were unreasonable - I'm starting to think I was wrong