curious about distilling

Homebrew, cordials, cheese, dehydrating, smoking and soap making. An area for all problems to be asked, tips to be given and procedures shared.
User avatar
Rosendula
A selfsufficientish Regular
A selfsufficientish Regular
Posts: 1743
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:55 pm
Location: East Yorkshire

curious about distilling

Post: # 127762Post Rosendula »

I've suddenly become curious about distilling. Now I know it's illegal to distill alcohol here in the UK, so I'm only interested in satisfying my curiosity, of course :wink:

1. Why is it illegal? Is it just because 'they' want us to buy it and pay lots of tax on it? Or is it, as some people suggest, dangerous?

2. If it is dangerous, how so?

3. I read somewhere that if you distill 1litre of 10%ABV wine, you get 100ml of pure alcohol. That confused me because I thought the idea of distilling was to make spirits. :scratch: So how do you get spirits then? Do you have to add something to the pure alcohol?

Like I said, just curious. :drunken:
Rosey xx

ina
A selfsufficientish Regular
A selfsufficientish Regular
Posts: 8241
Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 9:16 pm
Location: Kincardineshire, Scotland

Re: curious about distilling

Post: # 127764Post ina »

The 100 ml pure alcohol is a theoretical thing - naturally, as 10% of 1 ltr is 100ml, and if your wine has 10% alcohol... And you don't get to the pure alocohol straight away, you'd have to distill it several times. Scotch is, if I remember correctly, casked at 54% ("cask strength", which you can sometimes buy), and then diluted to normal bottling strength.

I believe, if you don't do the distilling properly, you get left with some residue in the stuff that can be very bad for your health.... But I can't remember the exact details! :oops:
Ina
I'm a size 10, really; I wear a 20 for comfort. (Gina Yashere)

contadino
Living the good life
Living the good life
Posts: 474
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:39 pm
Location: Apulia, Italia

Re: curious about distilling

Post: # 127767Post contadino »

It's illegal for two reasons:

1. If you make it yourself, the government gets no tax on it.
2. If you get it ever so slightly wrong, the health implications can be pretty dire. Blindness, kidney failure, embolisms, etc..

Yes, 1 litre of 10% abv would yield 100ml of pure alcohol. However, you're unlikely to get 100% pure alcohol because there are so many variables in the process. Besides, pure alcohol is pretty difficult to drink - it brings true meaning to the phrase 'firewater.'

Spirits include residual flavours and water content from the original source material (wine, for example.)

contadino
Living the good life
Living the good life
Posts: 474
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:39 pm
Location: Apulia, Italia

Re: curious about distilling

Post: # 127769Post contadino »

ina wrote:I believe, if you don't do the distilling properly, you get left with some residue in the stuff that can be very bad for your health.... But I can't remember the exact details! :oops:
I think it's more to do with the temperatures at which the two types of alcohol are distilled at. Ethanol and methanol are only something like a degree or two apart. Methanol will do you great damage permanently, ethanol will only damage you temporarily.

ina
A selfsufficientish Regular
A selfsufficientish Regular
Posts: 8241
Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 9:16 pm
Location: Kincardineshire, Scotland

Re: curious about distilling

Post: # 127775Post ina »

contadino wrote:Besides, pure alcohol is pretty difficult to drink - it brings true meaning to the phrase 'firewater.'
Well, you wouldn't have to drink it pure... In Germany, you can buy "pure" alcohol (I think it's 90% or a bit above that) for making your own liqueurs. I always used to make cherry liqueur like that; because the alcohol is so pure, you can add a lot more juice, and you don't just get vodka or whatever you are using with a hint of fruit juice...
Ina
I'm a size 10, really; I wear a 20 for comfort. (Gina Yashere)

contadino
Living the good life
Living the good life
Posts: 474
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:39 pm
Location: Apulia, Italia

Re: curious about distilling

Post: # 127777Post contadino »

I speak from experience. The first time we made Limoncello was with Alcool Puro and we forgot to add water. It was quite a hit.

User avatar
The Riff-Raff Element
A selfsufficientish Regular
A selfsufficientish Regular
Posts: 1650
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:27 pm
Location: South Vendée, France
Contact:

Re: curious about distilling

Post: # 127781Post The Riff-Raff Element »

I have a little practical experience of this (quite legally obtained, I hasten to add!)

If you were to distill a fermented beverage such as wine, the maximum concentration of alcohol (ethanol or ethyl alcohol to precise) you could obtain would be 78%. This is due to a curious quirk in what is known as the phase equilibrium of alcohol / water mixes which leads to a low point in the boiling curve at this concentration.

To get more pure alcohol you have to add lime or similar to remove the water chemically.

In practice most distillations yield something in the mid 50's% and some other bits come across too to give characteristic flavour.

Distilling grain liquors should not normally give spirits with dangerous components. This is because the carbohydrates in the must are present more or less entirely as simple sugars such as fructose and glucose and these ferment preferentially to ethanol plus a few "higher" alcohols such as propanols and butanols, a touch of methanol and some other odds and sods like ketones - it is these latter that are largely responsible for hangovers.

Distilling fermentation from grapes and berry sources is more of a problem. The pectin in these can ferment to methanol, which is poisonous. One concentrated up by distillation, methanol really can send you blind. This is avoided by careful monitoring the distillation to discard the first bit that distills (and id high in methanol) or by some jiggery pokery with the enzymes in the must to digest the pectin safely.

There are tests - quite simple ones - that can detect the presence of methanol in significant amounts.

Aside from being illegal, distillation is a considerable fire hazard. We still have travelling stills in France where one can take wine or other stuff to be converted to spirits. They are dying out because no new licences to do this are being issued. The distiller takes a fee for each litre distilled and collects the duty on behalf of the government.

It must be said that the stuff that comes out is pretty fierce. :drunken: but I too use it for making liqueurs.

On the whole, I wouldn't recommend trying this at home :mrgreen:

Edit - sorry, ethanol and water form a constant boiling mixture AT 78°C of 95% alcohol. I've been drinking the fermented stuff again.

ina
A selfsufficientish Regular
A selfsufficientish Regular
Posts: 8241
Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 9:16 pm
Location: Kincardineshire, Scotland

Re: curious about distilling

Post: # 127782Post ina »

And now we all want to know where you gained this experience so legally... :mrgreen:

Thanks for this brilliant lecture!
Ina
I'm a size 10, really; I wear a 20 for comfort. (Gina Yashere)

User avatar
The Riff-Raff Element
A selfsufficientish Regular
A selfsufficientish Regular
Posts: 1650
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:27 pm
Location: South Vendée, France
Contact:

Re: curious about distilling

Post: # 127785Post The Riff-Raff Element »

University - my degree's in chemistry with a large slug of biochemistry. We were allowed to do all kinds of stuff quite legally in the lab, and distilling alcohol / water mixtures of varying complexities was a simple and cheap way to improve on practical technique before tacking more difficult tasks.

I confess that I did also try a few times at home, and produced some quite passable stuff :pirate: - but then it bacame apparent to me just what I was risking both legally and in terms of the danger I was posing to my housemates so I stopped being so stupid, though in my defence I never attempt to sell it or anything like that, and stuck to making home made wine and beer instead.

User avatar
Clara
A selfsufficientish Regular
A selfsufficientish Regular
Posts: 1253
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:29 pm
Location: Las Alpujarras, Spain

Re: curious about distilling

Post: # 127855Post Clara »

Ah yes, why is it the noble pursuit of science always brings out the base desires :lol: I won't confess publicly to what a (more gifted) friend and I decided to make during our chemistry A-level, but trust me it was quite a party :lol: . Needless to say I am thankful to this day that we are still alive and (almost) sane.

Anyhows....thank you for the above that made interesting reading and another bit of trivia to store in my shrinking brain!
baby-loving, earth-digging, bread-baking, jam-making, off-grid, off-road 21st century domestic goddess....

...and eco campsite owner

ina
A selfsufficientish Regular
A selfsufficientish Regular
Posts: 8241
Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 9:16 pm
Location: Kincardineshire, Scotland

Re: curious about distilling

Post: # 127861Post ina »

The Riff-Raff Element wrote:University - my degree's in chemistry with a large slug of biochemistry. We were allowed to do all kinds of stuff quite legally in the lab, and distilling alcohol / water mixtures of varying complexities was a simple and cheap way to improve on practical technique before tacking more difficult tasks.
And I bet that was a way to keep the students interested, too! :mrgreen:

The most exciting I did in the lab at uni was determine the indigestible fibre content of the stomach, crop and duodenum of chickens... :roll:
Ina
I'm a size 10, really; I wear a 20 for comfort. (Gina Yashere)

User avatar
Clara
A selfsufficientish Regular
A selfsufficientish Regular
Posts: 1253
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:29 pm
Location: Las Alpujarras, Spain

Re: curious about distilling

Post: # 127896Post Clara »

ina wrote: The most exciting I did in the lab at uni was determine the indigestible fibre content of the stomach, crop and duodenum of chickens... :roll:
I bet you carve a roast bird like a demon though :lol:
baby-loving, earth-digging, bread-baking, jam-making, off-grid, off-road 21st century domestic goddess....

...and eco campsite owner

ina
A selfsufficientish Regular
A selfsufficientish Regular
Posts: 8241
Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 9:16 pm
Location: Kincardineshire, Scotland

Re: curious about distilling

Post: # 127897Post ina »

Clara wrote: I bet you carve a roast bird like a demon though :lol:
Demon might be. I suppose I know more about it than most vegetarians... Unfortunately, those chickens were very, very dead - and complete with all appendices, i.e. feet, head, feathers... :pale:
Ina
I'm a size 10, really; I wear a 20 for comfort. (Gina Yashere)

User avatar
The Riff-Raff Element
A selfsufficientish Regular
A selfsufficientish Regular
Posts: 1650
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:27 pm
Location: South Vendée, France
Contact:

Re: curious about distilling

Post: # 127911Post The Riff-Raff Element »

Clara wrote:I won't confess publicly to what a (more gifted) friend and I decided to make during our chemistry A-level, but trust me it was quite a party :lol: . Needless to say I am thankful to this day that we are still alive and (almost) sane.
Hmmm...knowing what is typically available to A level students in the way of starting materials and the sort of facilities you would have had to work with I have a pretty shrewd idea :mrgreen:

And ina is quite right: it is being able to make "naughty" things (alcohols, drugs, explosives and extreme poisons) quite legitimately (most of the time) that is half the appeal of chemistry courses. These days there are fewer of them and the course material is being made less interesting 'lest someone gets hurt, which is a shame really.

User avatar
Rosendula
A selfsufficientish Regular
A selfsufficientish Regular
Posts: 1743
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:55 pm
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: curious about distilling

Post: # 127940Post Rosendula »

Thanks for all you replies, everyone. :cheers:

Isn't the internet wonderful? Not so long ago I would have had to go to the library and paw through book after book in the hope of finding my answers, and to be honest, I probably wouldn't have bothered. Now all I have to do is ask. :flower: I learn so much here, it's great.
Rosey xx

Post Reply