Agricultural Tie

[bealers]

Hi,

A place has come up near us that we can almost afford, it's quite basic but importantly it has a few acres of land and the house is big enough for my family; it also has an "Agricultural Occupancy Planning Condition".

Now I understand and agree with the point of the condition, it's to enable more affordable property for those working in the agricultural/forestry industry, but I wonder if anyone here knows how this condition is enforced or even better has experience of living in such a place?

For example when does one get judged to be having an agricultural income? Is it on exchange of contracts? Of at some arbitrary judging stage? Who does the judging? As a family transitioning to a more agricultural lifestyle would we have time to build ourselves up to meeting the criteria? I know that Lammas for instance got their planning on the basis that within 5 years each resident would be deriving their income from the land. What's income? Subsistence? Or all outgoings. What's the benchmark? I recently got my felling ticket and will soon be doing the odd forestry job, but for now there's no way that and some chutney making - however nice - is going to be deemed as our main income stream. It plainly isn't.

I'm not looking to cynically move in and try and get the condition lifted, honest! If it's a non-starter then it's a non-starter, I'd just like to know where we stand.

Thanks

p.s. FWIW the property has been on since April.

[oldjerry]

There are loads of places with ag . ties round here,there is a legal def. of what is required(checkout the smallholder forums,they're always doing that stuff),but I think different planning depts interpret the regs differently(and if you're in Wales that could be different still).I expect you have already,but have you been to the local planning office? I despise the local authority,but I've always found the planning office really approachable for advice, not the actual committee of course,but the guys you go in and see(and I've never made an appointment).

[KathyLauren]

I don't know about your regs over their, but if it's anything like our Agricultural Land Reserve, they would be more concerned with how you use the land rather than how you make your living. Heck, if they insisted that farmers made their living solely off the land, there wouldn't be any farmers. Over here, what they want to see on ALR land is that the land is not being used for something other than agriculture, and that it is as difficult as possible to rezone it to allow some other use.

[chicken feed]

mum and dads place has a ag tag they have always kept animals on the land & grown christmas trees, both of which falls into line with ag tags. of course thes houses would cost so much more if the tag was removed taking them out of a lot of peoples price bracket (by as much as one third i am lead to belive).

[mrsflibble]

wow, i had no idea this even existed! sorry. i live in a little suburban bubble at the moment lol.

[mrsflibble]

i'd love this, not because of the idea of making a quick buck because tbh when i buy a house it's going to be for me and my family to enjoy for generations.

i'd love this because i could realise the dream of baing somewhere country-fied, but also have a smallholding. i'd love to eventually have cickens, a goat or two and some pigs!!!

[dustydave]

I'd have a look on the local planning website to see if you can find any case history of how the council deal with these. I'd also talk to someone at the council about the exact wording of the clause.

Councils in places like Wiltshire are fairly laid back, Devon and Cornwall arn't, not sure about Wales.

They can be a way of getting nice place at a 35% discount, or they can be a total nightmare.

They also don't have permiited dev. rights - so getting an extension or building sheds in the garden can be a problem.

[Stonehead]

They can be a way of getting nice place at a 35% discount...

Not necessarily. If the property is on the market for close to the appropriate valuation, then the seller is not going to be too pleased by someone making an offer 35% below that.

I knew someone who owned a smallholding with a long-standing agricultural tie. When he came to sell, he had a flood of buyers who put in offers that were 25%-50% less than the asking price—which was something like a quarter less than the place would have been worth without the tie.

Time and again, people would say "oh, but you have to expect less because of the tie". And would then give indications that they either had no intention of respecting the tie or intended to try to have it lifted.

He did eventually get his asking price, but not without a lot of annoyance at the number of chancers that came out of the woodwork.

So don't expect huge discounts on the basis of a tie if the property has been correctly priced in the first place.

[the.fee.fairy]

So...am i being a bit dim? I interpreted it as 'nodeveloping property, have some kind of farming'.

So, am i right in thinking that a smallholder (as in really small, not self sufficient) would be ok to live there? For example, you all know that my dad wants a house and some land for my sister and i to live on, so if we went for one of these places, would we be able to do that and keep it agricultural by keeping chickens and pigs and an acre or so for self sufficientish living, yet still have jobs outside of the land?

That;s my ideal i think. I don't want to live off my land completely (hence being Ish, not fully self sufficient), but i do want to keep chickens, pigs and i'd like some sheep and goats...and maybe an alpaca or two (for wool...), oh, and some bees. however, i do want to have an outside occupation with an income independent to the 'farm'. I know that Nik is the same, and Dad was looking at a place with 5 and a half acres for that very reason.

I've stayed away from places with a ag tie because i can't really work out whether that means that you have to BE agricultural to buy it, ie: turn it into a proper working farm, rather than a 'hobby' farm. Does that make sense?

[Stonehead]

There's a bungalow and land that's just gone on the market up here. It has an ag tie that specifies "the purchasers will be restricted to a person or persons employed full time in agriculture in the locality or to a person whose last occupation was in agricultural employment in the area, but also to include the dependents of such persons residing with him."

However, the price is "offers in excess of £577,000", putting it well out of reach of anyone I know who has a job in agriculture.

[the.fee.fairy]

That's us out for both reasons then! Although Scotland's a bit far from where we ideally want to be...

[Stonehead]

So, am i right in thinking that a smallholder (as in really small, not self sufficient) would be ok to live there? For example, you all know that my dad wants a house and some land for my sister and i to live on, so if we went for one of these places, would we be able to do that and keep it agricultural by keeping chickens and pigs and an acre or so for self sufficientish living, yet still have jobs outside of the land?

From what I've seen, it usually comes down to the principal buyer making a "substantial" proportion of their income from agriculture (or forestry). A solicitor told me that if I put myself down first on the mortgage and deeds of a property with an ag tie we'd be fine as I don't earn a lot but I do earn it all from agriculture. However, we couldn't put the OH down first because she doesn't earn anything from agriculture.

However, ag ties do vary so you need to check each one very closely.