Creating a smallholding?

[Nomada]

I need some advice and opinions, if what I've got in mind is feasible or if I'm talking a load of crap. I've recently inherited some money from my beloved and much missed grandfather and want to do something that can change my life with it rather than fritter it away like my sibings have.

It's not a massive amount, I can't exactly run out and buy a smallholding with it, I don't think it would even cover a deposit on a mortgage for one or anything like that (not that a bank would give me one with my shaky career path, contract to contract you see so I'm scared I'll never be able to get one). I've been researching and I think if I added a little to it, it could be enough to buy a plot of land with. I've spotted a few places that are affordable, with about 2-3 acres of land, in nice locations and with a water supply on the site. They are undesignated land, not greenbelt. I was considering buying a plot of land, planting some trees such as fruit and nut trees and visiting to maintain it (or rent it out for grazing perhaps?) and in the mean time saving up money to be able to afford to try submiting planning applications to build a simple home there, say in 7-10 years time. I have friends who did something similar and now they are in the Lammas eco villiage in South Wales. I was thinking of visiting them to volunteer, try out that kind of lifestyle and pick their brains. If it doesn't work out then I could perhaps sell that land at a later time.

My dad thinks it would be a good investment, my mum thinks I should leave this money in the bank! I don't trust them! I've also been considering a small woodland instead (I'm a young ecologist so I'd love an opportunity to care for a habitat like that, plus it'd be cool to camp there). My dad also thinks this could also be a good investment and a cool thing to do, he's really enthusiastic about that idea. Once again, my mother thinks we're crazy. I think it would be a great tribute to my grandad who started life as a farmer and had a love of growing things.

I'm determined and a hard worker, if I had to work three jobs again like I had to do to fund my degree then I'd do it to make this work. I just don't want to be living this kind of life in a city in ten years time. I want a place to call home and a chance to live off the land.

So, am I crazy or could it work? Are there any other things I've missed that I should I be thinking about? I need to do more research on planning and building and so on, I'm hoping the couple i know who've built their own home could also help me on that. What do you think, am I silly?

[Green Aura]

I don't think you're crazy at all. Sounds a fantastic idea.

Before you make any decisions I suggest you get hold of a copy of Living Off Grid by Nick Rosen. There is loads of good information in it (he uses the concept of off-grid much more broadly than just electricity).

[MuddyWitch]

Planning permission in the UK is highly unlikely, unless you can prove a need to live on the land, and even then it may come with all sorts of agricultural ties. This is a path many of us have trod.

I do think the idea of buying a piece of land to enjoy is a good one, but be carefull. There are a lot of scams going on where fields are sliced up in the hopes of planning 'one day' (ditto woods)

Maybe you could look a little further afield?

MW

[KathyLauren]

I can't help you with the rules and regulations, since yours are likely very different from ours. I would just suggest that you research them carefully, so that you know in advance what is permitted and what isn't.

However, I would encourage you to pursue this vision. There is a reason why land is referred to as "real estate" - it has real, as opposed to conventional, value. A financial catastrophe could make money in the bank or any other investment worthless, but land, especially arable land, will always have value. You will never regret purchasing a well-chosen piece of land.

[boboff]

Stear clear of the Woodland parcels, although not a con there is little investment value in it at all. Its eco only, and fun with the kids to collect wood etc.

I have found that you cant rent out a small amount of ground, farmers just are not interested.

Make sure the ground has easy access to the highway, this is always the main problem with planning.

Get a knackered caravan on it as soon as possible, and hide it away as discretely as possible, have some evidence on when it arrived on site.

Its then a time thing, apparently there are rules about housing with ties to the land, you need to show that you can earn minimum wage from the ground, then planning is easier.

Don't do anything dramatic ( tree felling etc ) slowly does it, don't attract attention to yourself.

My feeling is that planning is an inponderable, it depends on the planning officer, local policy and plans ( if you find an area that is in your area plan for development the price will be higher though) and I think nowadays most of all, how many bloody nosey neighbours you have who object.

EIther way I can't think of a better way of remembering your grandad. I wouldn't worry too much about the money, just do it and let Fate decide what happens.

[Odsox]

Stear clear of the Woodland parcels, although not a con there is little investment value in it at all. Its eco only, and fun with the kids to collect wood etc.

I'm not so sure I agree with this Boboff, it depends on the variety of trees and any covenants on tree felling.
If it's a reasonable sized woodland, say 3 to 10 acres you could make a reasonable amount coppicing and selling the fire wood. Logs are fairly expensive now, but what will they be worth when the world economy takes off again and fuel hits record prices again ?
7 acres and a chainsaw would make you self sufficient in fuel for ever ... one acre of logs cut every 7 years, and still have the land value appreciating.
Better than a bank I think.

[boboff]

Tony

I have read your sig, and on the basis of that, and that I should probably have the same statement made about my posts, suffice it to say I just don't know.

7 acres would cost getting on for £30k.
A tonne of logs takes at least 3 hours to saw & split. An hour to load and unload, and £3 in petrol for the chain saw and £5 in diesel to deliver "ish"
You have to move them to a dry place, and leave them to dry out, time to sharpen saws, service saws, replace chains, plus all the agro of ropes and access and pulling trees so they don't get all hung up on felling, plus its really scary felling trees, means that unless you're at it all the time and totally geared up for it financially you would be better off working on a till.

If however you enjoy it, then its cool, but then again I would always prefer to have someone with me when I was using a saw, so thats another consideration too.

It's good exercise though, and better and cheaper than the Gym, and splitting logs really sorts out a bad back ache.

I suppose in Short Tony, its a matter of choice and personal preference. My attitude is jaded as for the last two springs I have been hampered with my logging by a succession of very badly managed local council Tree Preservation Orders. Also when I tried to sell logs, the tarps blew off in the rain, and then the freezing weather meant that they all froze together so I couldn't sell them when people needed as the logs were one 10 tonne lump and I couldn't get the truck out the drive as it was frozen solid too! Then this year I was clearing the hedge in the field and after removing a few loads I got the truck stuck in the field in a hole, when I got pulled out the hole it was the top of a 20ft Adit running through the field which means now I am too scared to drive anywhere near it!! Plus then when you sell the logs people were calling at 10 at night and waking up the kids, phoned on Christmas Day wanting a delivery, they want logs which are no bigger than 6 inches, the main customers you find are friends who assume you will do Mates rates, and then it gets embarrasing when you don't give them cheap prices etc etc

Wow, Rant or what, and yes I and smiling as I really do appreicate how rediculous all that sounds, but it is true!

[Odsox]

Wow, OK ... you obviously know more about the subject than I do.
I have to admit that I haven't done any coppicing for getting on for 50 years and things have obviously changed a bit.

But I would still jump at the chance of owning 7 acres of ash/sycamore woodland, provided I had the money, and once coppiced the trees are easily managed ... multiple eight to ten inch trunks at about 30' tall. Not mature 100' monsters that takes a professional to tackle.
Good luck with your logging Boboff, you will be very affluent when oil hits record figures.

[homegrown]

I don't know anything about the laws and regs in your country, but perhaps if you brought a good piece of land not to far from the city you could divide it up for a while and rent out portions as alotments, after all why should the government and developers be the only ones to make money of alotments.

from what I read their is a huge list of people wanting to get a plot of their own, maybe you could get consent to build a small cottage onthe grounds that you need to be onsite to maintain the land and provide security to your tenants.

[grahamhobbs]

Sorry but if you are thinking of getting planning permission on agricultural land - forget it, unless you can afford say 10 acres or more, then you might be able to build up a viable business and thus get permission but even then it will be very difficult.
However if you are a keen gardener / self-sufficienter, an acre or two close to where you live would be great. Over the years you could make it in to a wonderful and productive haven. As well you could as homegrown suggested, share the land with other like minded people, by renting out some as allotments.

[Thomzo]

Hi, this is something that I've looked into and basically, if there is any chance that a piece of land would get planning permission, then it's going to be expensive. But you could try for a piece of grazing land near some housing and then wait for one of the houses to come up for sale/rent.

Don't think that you'll never get a mortgage as a contractor though. Find yourself a good mortgage broker - they are worth the money as they'll know the unusual lenders who will lend to contractors. I'm a contractor and rarely work in the same place for more than 6 months but I've still got a mortgage.

Also, I don't know what industry you work in, but have you thought about setting yourself up as a limited company? It means that you have accounts of your own which you can use to support a mortgage application. Often two years' worth of accounts is all that you need.

Good luck
Zoe

[Foolonthehill]

It really depends on your inheritance amount I'm afraid. If you can afford a piece of land over five hectares then there is a route you can take to living on your land. But it is still difficult, a fight with planners and a lot of hard graft. I'll take your word you aren't frightened of the hard work :)

With five hectares (12.5 acres) you can at least go down the route of coming under General Permitted Development Order (1995), Schedule II, Part 6 - Class A. This will entitle you to erect your own farm buildings upto a certain size and set up a (hopefuly) profitable business. You need to show to planners your need to live on the site, i.e. young animal stock rearing and protection (from four legged vermin as opposed to the two legged variety!!).

It is not something that can be done cheaply, however I see you are from NW England where the land is a little more reasonably priced. If you can afford the land or at least part buy and part rent, you are in with a chance. If it all fails on the home building front, you can at least sell the land which tends to fluctuate in value but generally holds its value against inflation.

[Nomada]

Hello! I've been away finishing uni work and researching my options. Thanks for all your opinions and I'm taking them all into consideration.

Graham, in terms of building myself a home I am avoiding any land marked greenbelt or agricultural as I know for a fact I almost certainly wont be getting planning permission! I think it would be a lot of heartbreak in the long term. Boboff, when you say woodland parcels do you mean where they divide a big wood up inot little ones and sell bits off to different people? I've not really fancied that too much to be honest. I have found a woodland that I like in Wales that stands alone amongst some farmland but with excellent road access, great for camping in too!

I'm currently also looking at derelict houses and cottages with bits of land attached with a view to doing them up to live in. Not all of these are in the UK, I know how restrictive UK planning laws and such are.

Zoe, thanks for that, that's really made me feel so much better!

[grahamhobbs]

Nomada, have you thought of doing WWoofing, it gives you the chance to experience many different types of smallholdings and also in various countries throughout europe and the world. It may help clarify exactly what you are looking for and where. Follow your dream, you're not crazy. I lived all my life in London as a builder and if it wasn't for my allotment and connections with friends in rural France, I would have gone crazy.

[Nomada]

Cheers Graham, I'm looking for something like that but at the moment between work and finishing my masters it could only be a shortish one unfortunately but it beats lying on a beach for two weeks!