Bl**dy neighbours and access to property

[Claripup]

Hi Isher's

This is a half rant - half plea for advice

Does anyone know anything about access/right of way to your own property?

The problem I have is that I live on an alleyway, it comprises of two parts, the part up to our house from one end is wide enough to get a car down (just!) and about 3 of our neighbours have made driveways out of their front gardens. The other part is narrower, more footpath size and leads out onto the "main" road. The issue I have is... I have a motorbike that doesn't like to start so I have taken to push starting it down the "footpath" as it is slightly downhill (I only try to start the engine once I can see the pavement at the end is clear) and the two neighbours on either side of the "footpath" are objecting... by blocking the exit with cars/coming out and standing in the way and screaming at me etc.

Now I know riding a motorbike on an official footpath is illegal, but according to everything I can find the whole path (wide and narrow bits) doesn't exist. The council refuse to maintain it/clear the weeds as it isn't theirs, and as i have to leave/enter my property on a "non road unowned piece of land" does it matter which way I go?

I feel I should also say that I think a lot of the ill feeling is due to someone else riding down there less carefully than I do, as i will always stop if there are people walking (especially on the narrow bit) and I only use it early in the weekday morrnings due to the not starting bike... and at no other time.

However, the main reason I am pursuing this is that instead of knocking at my door and explaining their views calmly, they thought it would be better all round, to block the end and then come out in a state of undress (not to be crude but there was far too much flesh hanging out of the dressing gown!! ) screaming and swearing and threatening to call the police.

But on the basis that the council claim they don't own it - neither of the houses at the end own it (or they would have accused me of trespassing), and no one else seems to know who is responsible for it surely that would make it either an easement or a yard (ie shared access to all properties not on the road) and usable by anything that needs access to the properties (people, cars, bikes, prams etc)

And given the fact that legally if something is blocking a "right of way" you can remove enough of the obstruction to pass can I go down there with a chainsaw and take the front three foot off of the offending car??? Please?? :-p

I want to live somewhere with no neighbours...

Clari

[benner]

I'd let them shout and swear at you, let them threaten to call the police. Then call the police yourself to report your neighbour for threatening behaviour. Surely they would be committing some sort of public order offence by virtue of the shouting and swearing. Not least failing to uphold public decency if, as you say, too much was on display.
Either that or do what I do when I experience road-rage... Smile sweetly, blow them a kiss and give them a little cheeky wave!
Best of luck
Ben

[Claripup]

Thanks, I was considering making a public arrest for abusive behaviour and indecent exposure!... apparently I can restrain her so long as I don't use undue force... sadly I can't wave, smile and go on my way as they have blocked my way... and to get past I would have to go over the said neighbours driveway, which is trespassing.

[KathyLauren]

I would suggest doing a bit of research. You should be able to find out from your local Land Titles office (or whatever they call the equivalent over there) who owns the lane / path.

If you are seriously thinking of making a citizen's arrest, you should find out exactly what kind of offenses you can legally do so for. Over here, you can make a citizen's arrest only for something that could get you killed, like armed robbery, not for indecent exposure.

[Green Aura]

Sorry Clari - I couldn't work out exactly what they're objecting to. Is it the time of day (are you waking them up?) Is your bike particularly noisy when it does start? Or do they think you're trespassing.

I think you need to find out exactly what they're objecting to before you can resolve it. Unless you live in a particularly strange area I don't know many people who would line up semi-naked to protest unless they were being dragged out of bed

You can get info from Land Registry but they will charge - although it's a really tiny sum - about £3 depending on how much digging they have to do. Maybe if it is unclaimed road you could claim it and then you can park your bike there or do whatever

[grahamhobbs]

Have to say I think you should find out what is troubling your neighbour(s) before going on about who's property it belongs to. Perhaps they or their kid was almost run down by a biker or the noise is pissing them off so early in the morning (as an ex-biker I know how noisy a motorbike can be when starting it up). Maybe they are just neighbours from hell, but perhaps you should start by trying to find out what is agravating them and then seeing if there is compromise.

[wulf]

It would also be worth getting the bike sorted out - if you are coming out of an enclosed alley into a road or across a footpath and concerned with getting enough speed to get it started there is an increased risk that someone will be innocently be passing by, resulting in a collision.

It doesn't sound like your neighbours response is calm and measured but do consider that they may be highlighting an important point (even if what is at the front of their forebrains is that they don't like getting woken up by the motorbike in the morning).

Wulf

[kit-e-kate]

You should definitely try and claim the lane as your property if it is classed as un-owned. Also, it might be a good idea to invest in a new starter for your bike! It can't be any fun at all on cold mornings!

[boboff]

If the land is unowned common ground, it can't be claimed unless you can "enclose" it. Given it is a right of way this is not possible.

Given that they park a car on the ground they are objecting you to taking a bike over then they are silly billies.

I would drop them a little note asking a time to meet and discuss the issue in a calm manner, and one in which you can agree the way forward.

You may be able to accomodate them without any issue, be carefull about getting the authorities involved, as you will then be honour bound to release this infomation if you ever have to sell the house.

We have a footpath running through our garden, and I must admit that I object to motorbikes, and not anything else, why? Well having riden a bike I think they are not very stable, and the riders field of vision is bloked by the Helmet, and they are noisey which makes interpreting threats which give notice by noise harder. With kids, pets and chickens wondering around it just seams wrong that they should be riden on a path.

[sheridand]

I have rear access via an unpaved road, narrow enough for a car. When we bought the house, we found that we did not own the rear access, but that a housing association which owns a few of the properties on our estate did. We took out insurance against them claiming the end of the road and blocking it (thereby being able to charge us). We do own the 4 foot of ditch beyond it though! Quite a lot of these little snickets are owned by majority owners of the land they are on, my solicitor informed me, so it would be worth going to the land registry as a previous poster said, to find out.
They sound as if they are very stressed people, it may not be you per se that has cheesed them off, maybe you just tipped them over the edge! The note idea is a good one, they can only say no and stand naked and shouting again! I would agree that you should resolve it quietly, when you buy a house now you are duty bound to report any neighbour skirmishes that have occured in an official acapacity.

[Gem]

Can you not just push start your bike on the road bit rather than than the path bit?..

At the risk of playing devil's advocate I can see their point of view particularly if someone else has done something similar without the same level of care that you seem to put into it.. When the neighbour confronted you did you try and talk to them?

I think making peace is the best bet. Even if they are the most obnoxious people in the world its usually simple enough to a - find out what is really bothering them and b - to come to some sort of a compromise. If they refuse to talk or make it impossible to discuss then at least you have tried.

Noise may be a contributing factor.. I don't know about anyone else but I have had to go and ask a neighbour to stop revving their car at 6:30 in the morning (they were at it for about 30 mins!!)... It was a weekday but my only day off that week...

[Stonehead]

You're almost certainly going to require proper legal advice on this, whether or not you can negotiate a peace settlement with your neighbour. You need to know who owns the land you're crossing, you need to know if easements are recorded on any of the property deeds (yours, the neighbours and the owner—if any—of the land you're crossing).

If you're lucky, you may have easements recorded on your deeds giving you a right-of-way over the paths—although they might be restricted to pedestrian access only.

If there are no easements recorded, then you should have them recorded, not just for the current situation but also should you come to sell in the future or should your neighbours sell.

You have rights to easement, even if they're not recorded as you would otherwise not have access to your property. (And if people block the easement, they are trespassing on your right to easement and can be taken to court.)

However, implied easements (the un-recorded ones) can get very complicated and you definitely need a solicitor with real experience in the field so they can determine if you have easement by necessity, easement by prior use, easement by estoppel, or easement by prescription. And then get it sorted and recorded on your deeds so it becomes an express easement and not an implied one.

We had quite a messy situation when we sold a house a few years ago. It was part of an early Victorian terraced block of four houses with a passage between the central pair. Originally, the centre two houses had access to their individual gardens via the passage while the outer two had access to theirs around the ends of the block.

When the land adjoining ends of the block was developed, that access was cut off but no one bothered to do anything about easements as they just went through their houses to their gardens. Decades went by without a problem, through a succession of owners, until we went to sell and a potential buyer's solicitor went nuts about the lack of express easements.

It turned out the central passage was not owned by anyone. We and the neighbour on the other side of the passage had implied rights of easement by use. One of the outer neighbours may have had an implied right of easement by use because the household on the other side of the passage to us had occasionally permitted them to carry garden waste through their garden and then out the passage. The other outer neighbour, next to us, had no right of easement because there'd been a six-foot fence between the gardens for more than 50 years.

The various solicitors—representing the five interested parties—seemed intent on making the situation every more complex while the neighbours without access to our garden were nothing but bad-tempered contrarians.

So, ourselves and the two co-operative neighbours decided to have title of the passage assigned to the house on the other side of it (a gate at each end enclosed it), with express easements for regular pedestrian use granted to our property and the other property adjoining the passage, plus an express easement for occasional pedestrian use granted to the property adjoining the other property adjoining the passage. We had one solicitor do the lot and it was sorted. The grumpy neighbour sold up and there was no issue with the new owner of that property as it was clear from the outset that they had no right of easement.

So I'd suggest getting your situation properly sorted and recorded on your deeds sooner rather than later.

[Claripup]

I am still trying to find out who "owns" the path, my main issue is the aggressive manner in which they have approched the problem, I am not inconsiderate and try to get on with my neighbours as a general rule, however their argument is that it is a footpath (despite the fact the council deny all knowledge of it and refuse to maintain it) so I should not be allowed to take my motorbike on it.

If they had come to me calmly and asked me I would have no issue with going the other way out of the path, as I am aware that motorbikes are noisy and scary to young children (they have a toddler) but that is not always possible as some neighbour will park on the wide part making impossible to get past on a motorbike.

I don't think calmly talking about it would work as these neighbours (well known in the village) think who ever shouts the loudest is right, and the fact they they are willing to break the law to get there own way by parking on the pavement and blocking a right of way (both of which are illegal). Also when I tried to explain why I was using that way (bike not starting) and that I didn't fire the engine till I was level with her driveway she shouted over me and called me a liar, so I'm assuming she has no iterest in anyones elses view but her own!

Once I have worked out who owns it and what it is classed as (footpath, easement etc) I will seek legal advice/help.

Also I should point out that I only use the "footpath" just before 8.00 in the mornings on weekdays (I use the other way at all other times), and while I could push my bike to the road and start it there, and indeed would have done if they had asked me in a polite manner, I point blank refuse to after the abuse I received.

Until I can work out if I can use it as access I'm not, as if it turns out I can't then I have been breaking the law and don't want to continue.

Anyways thanks to you all for the replies and I hope I've cleared the few questions up.

Oh and also the motorbike is getting a new battery in the next week or so which should clear up the starting problem