I was polled by t3scos

[contadino]

Preserving a local economy and jobs has nothing whatsoever to do with being green. It's about keeping your local community together. Maybe you need to reappraise whether your goals are to be green at all, or whether you're just looking for excuses for nothing to change. Likewise there is nothing stopping you from becoming more environmentally conscious and continuing to shop in supermarkets. Many communities now have nothing other than supermarkets. Burying you head in the sand is always an option.

There was nothing smug or self-righteous about my posts, regardless of what you think. I haven't touched on my personal circumstances in this thread, and you know nothing about them. You have no idea whether or not I strive to be green at all. Suffice it to say, you're way wide of the mark and I really don't care whether you choose to misinterpret my posts.

[Clara]

I see the predicament, I really do, and given the recent thread on energy bills I can see that people are really squeezed financially.

One possible solution is to look into whether there are food co-ops (that is where people come together and buy in bulk say from wholefood suppliers and local farmers) in your area, and if not to start one? You may well find it´s cheaper than the dreaded supermarket.

[snapdragon]

Clara - I think that may be easier to accomplish in Spain - or any other european country, than in Britain. Being the nation of shopkeepers and having been Thatchered it's not so easily done
I doubt if there would be much chance of investment in co-operative ventures (and you would need cash to start it) they are not viewed as long term investment.

Oddly the Co-Operative Stores started as the co-operatives you mention, but as has been mentioned previously people now find the small co-op stores expensive.

The discussion on community I think might make many of us think - where are our communities?
The village in which I live is quite large and very varied, with a section of new-build housing on farmland (cheaper than the local towns, folks that live there rarely work or shop here)
I guess the nearest you'd find to a 'community' here would be the church members or the pub customers

[contadino]

I doubt if there would be much chance of investment in co-operative ventures (and you would need cash to start it) they are not viewed as long term investment.

The book Self-Reliance by John Yeoman gives detailed instructions on how to setup food cooperatives that operate as not-for-profit organisations. The savings, as I recall, were pretty substantial, and the effort involved small.

[missie moo]

There was nothing smug or self-righteous about my posts

yes there was, and you seem to have managed it with all your posts on this thread.

I haven't touched on my personal circumstances in this thread, and you know nothing about them.

likewise

I really don't care whether you choose to misinterpret my posts.

likewise

jane

[Clara]

Sorry possible confusion over my choice of words. I meant it in a much looser sense, if you can get a group of people together who want to buy from the same supplier then you just add your orders together - say for basic things like flour, oats etc then even a group of 5 could easily divide up a 5 or 25kg of them and the savings would be considerable. I used to work in a healthfood shop and know that some suppliers (Infinity for example), will not charge for delivery if the order is over £200, which is not an unfeasible amount to divide between a few friends. You might not be able to buy everything like this, but every little helps and might mean there is more money around to make the more ethical or greener choices that a lot of people would like to make but find other things take precedence. Likewise it is possible to approach a local butcher and buy a whole lamb, which could be shared amongst 4. These are just a couple of examples I can think of - and things that I have seen done in the UK. I'm sure there's a lot more things that could be done this way. Hope that clarifies what I meant

[Graye]

Here I am again - on the fence!

Wouldn't we all like to be totally ethical and green with our lifestyles and shopping? How many can actually achieve that? Very few, if any, I suspect. And I also suspect those that do through choice have to spend all their time pursuing that aim. Others have it forced upon them by the circumstances in which they live whether they like it or not. I do like the theory of boycotting stores such as te3co but I don't see it happening in reality. I like the idea of genuine co-operatives but I doubt they will ever replace shopping as it has become.

I make as many gestures towards ethical/green buying as I can given my current circumstances. As I am self-employed, work from home and try to keep my hours down I have time to shop around, visit markets, search out bargains, compare, etc, etc. I cook much more from scratch these days and, because I have money available, I pay a little extra to ensure I buy such things as free range eggs (and meat on the few occasions I buy it for guests), local fruit and vegetables, etc. I don't buy these items via the supermarket as I know they will charge me way over the odds for wanting them but I still use the supermarkets as when I need to. BUT I know there are people who make their own gestures at a different level, be that more or less ethically and/or green than me. I don't see that I'm in a position to criticise them and I'm damned sure I would not appreciate them criticising me.

Realistically we will never be without supermarkets. There will always be people, for whatever reason (mainly, in this day and age time-related or financial), who need to shop in them. All we can hope for is that the supermarkets themselves will try to get away from the "cheapest must be best mentality" (and I mean quality as well as apparent till prices) they thrust upon their shoppers and start cleaning up their act. The EU doesn't help with all it's ridiculous nanny-like insistence upon poking it's nose into such things as uniform sizing and labelling but if anyone believes that supermarkets are out there for any other reason than to extract as much of our money as possible then they are being naive.

When we are back in the UK I often shop in a store (the name escapes me but I would't think they are unusual) where there are all sorts of dried goods (rice, flour, sugar, oats, raisins, pulses, grains, etc) in huge barrels and all you need do is shovel some into a bag and have it weighed. They don't object if you take in your own paper bags (probably because they weigh slightly more than the plastic ones provided so you pay a fraction more with your own paper ones) and there is no superfluous packaging - I just pop the bags straight in my shopping basket. On this basis you can select just as much you need and you don't pay over the odds for small portions. Dried herbs and spices are sold in plain little sachets for 45p instead of ridiculously expensive glass jars and there is always a selection of obviously local produce, complete with lots of muddy root etc. Where does the rice, flour etc come from? I have no idea and there are no labels telling me. So goodness knows how many food miles we are talking here or under what conditions the goods were produced.

Assuming I DID want to buy nothing but locally sourced goods I would a) drive myself crazy trying to find them b) spend all day every day doing it and c) have a very restricted diet and lifestyle generally. And although the area we live in is laughingly referred to as "the lost valley" we are not even vaguely remote - Scarborough and Middlesborough are 20 and 35 miles away respectively. But to shop there (where I would not even know where to start finding the sort of shops I need) I need to drive. Again, not very "green".

So I think everyone has to do their "bit" at their own level. If that involves living totally on locally produced items than good for them. If it means just thinking before you pick up that extra plastic grocery bag or buying loose veggies over pre-packed ones then good for them too.

[snapdragon]

........................ Hope that clarifies what I meant

nod Nod Clara - I see what you mean now - sorry to have misinterpreted

a good idea indeed if you have likeminded friends/neighbours

[Clara]

....When we are back in the UK I often shop in a store (the name escapes me but I would't think they are unusual) where there are all sorts of dried goods (rice, flour, sugar, oats, raisins, pulses, grains, etc) in huge barrels and all you need do is shovel some into a bag and have it weighed.....

If you can remember the name of that store pls let me know, I was talking on another board to someone about how these stores were really popular when I was a kid but i haven't seen one in years, though I wonder if that's because I spent my adult life in the south? Dunno, anyhow I love them and they are greener on many levels, specially if you take your own containers. If they caught on to this angle an supplied some organic and/or fairtrade products too that would be a even better (for all concerned)

[Graye]

I think it might be called Weigh Station? Does that sound right?

[snapdragon]

..When we are back in the UK I often shop in a store .... where there are all sorts of dried goods (rice, flour, sugar, oats, raisins, pulses, grains, etc) in huge barrels and all you need do is shovel some into a bag and have it weighed.
...................... If it means just thinking before you pick up that extra plastic grocery bag or buying loose veggies over pre-packed ones then good for them too.

Very well put Graye - we all do our bit within our means and cicumstances
It's a shame that few of those 'loose goods' shops seem to have survived, I used to use them a lot but I don't know of any in my area now Unfortunately it appears that for many it's easier to pick up a bag/box than serve yourself with the amount you need, the onward march of large supermarkets with their 'bargain' range has done for many of them- very sad

[Green Aura]

Ah Contadino
Have you read "Self-reliance" to the end - I think the guys nuts - back to previous thread on survivalism!!! Although you're right about the co-operative bit - I like his wasteland gardening as well, but find highly amusing about his bit about hiding it. Truly paranoid. Lovely.

[eccentric_emma]

....When we are back in the UK I often shop in a store (the name escapes me but I would't think they are unusual) where there are all sorts of dried goods (rice, flour, sugar, oats, raisins, pulses, grains, etc) in huge barrels and all you need do is shovel some into a bag and have it weighed.....

If you can remember the name of that store pls let me know, I was talking on another board to someone about how these stores were really popular when I was a kid but i haven't seen one in years, though I wonder if that's because I spent my adult life in the south? Dunno, anyhow I love them and they are greener on many levels, specially if you take your own containers. If they caught on to this angle an supplied some organic and/or fairtrade products too that would be a even better (for all concerned)

Weigh and Save!

I saw one in Exmouth (Devon) the other weekend. Couldn't tell you what it was like as I didn't go in but I was very excitable about it (how sad lol). Our Folkestone one closed down at least 10 years ago :-(

[ina]

Weigh and Save!

Called something different up here, but we have them, too.

[contadino]

Ah Contadino
Have you read "Self-reliance" to the end - I think the guys nuts - back to previous thread on survivalism!!! Although you're right about the co-operative bit - I like his wasteland gardening as well, but find highly amusing about his bit about hiding it. Truly paranoid. Lovely.

Yes, the last section is just unadulterated paranoia, and I suspect some of his suggestions are illegal in the UK. However, the first 4 (I think) sections are really good.