A Big Question

[Big Al]

They were sweet enough kids, but understandably distracted in a french class because their english reading and writing skills ranged from unmeasurable to age 7, but because of the constraints of the NC they had to sit there, I wasn't allowed to take them out and work on their english reading and writing. That was 5 hours a week of their lives wasted. What kind of message does that give out to kids about the value of education in general? Stepping away from the rant now......

Much the same when I was a classroom helper in a primary school. I used to get to take "the troublemakers" out of the class so the teacher could get on with the planned lesson for the good kids.

Of the 6 I took out 4 were dyslexic and 2 had the likes of attention dissorder. They soon found out that I was a bigger bully than them and they soon came to respect me and their fellow class mates. I managed to get 4 of them on the special needs register and upon leaving Y6 you could see the difference that one on one had done but a couple of years later in the summer I saw 2 in the town centre. 1 of them who was on the register was doing well and his parents thanked me for getting done what they had been trying to do for years and the other was in the back of a police car.......

[Annpan]

This is such an interesting thread. Thank you, oldfella, for starting it. It's one of those threads that makes me want to reply to every single message, most of which just to say I agree.

Having subjected my older two children to schooling, we have decided that unless something happens to stop us we are going to home educate Katie (2 1/2). Or should I say, 'continue home educating' her. For other people who are interested, there is a wonderful organisation called Education Otherwise ("http://www.education-otherwise.org/index.htm"). I would strongly urge interested people to visit the site and sign up to the emailing list because there are political changes going on that could make home education difficult in the future, and they need people to be active in their campaigns to protect our rights to home educate.

I quite agree with this being a very interesting thread - though I have found that many things I wouldn't nesessarily want 'my' child to learn in a school environment -
I consider cooking skills to be part of my culture (I wasn't taught in school or by my mother )
Etiqutte likewise (my SIL had a boyfriend who wore his baseball cap at the dinner table and had to really concentrate on not swearing when at the 'inlaws' for dinner. )
I would much rather the subject of sex education was broached at home, rather than infront of 25 giggling school kids.

I want the 'masses' to learn these skills and if not at home, then where? but that means that my child would loose out on taking a third language, because her time is wasted in a rudimentary cooking class
hmm, it's a toughy.

I am also with Rosey in that I/we will continue to home educate (not 'unschooling' as that has a whole movement that doesn't quite sit easy with me) HOWEVER I must point out that if you are in Scotland *PLEASE DO NOT USE EDUCATION OTHERWISE*. They have given many parents in Scotland incorrect advice (the advice as to how to remove a child from school) and people have gone to court because of the bad advice (and in at least one case the child left the court with a teacher and NOT his mother)
Anyway, the people to go to in Scotland are 'school house' (I don't know the situation in NI or Wales)

[Flo]

You can take a child to learning but if the desire is not there - time wasted.

In times passed when children went to school in order to learn to read, write and do basic arithmetic before being turned out into menial jobs there was a value placed on learning for the sake of learning because it could lead you on to better yourself.

Somehow I feel that the value of education has dropped since a couple of generations have had to go through school till 14, then 15 and then 16 before even having to consider working to feed themselves. Back this up with a generous welfare state and you have a powerful lot of disincentives to learning anything.

Home used to be the place where household budgeting, cleaning, basic cooking and care of clothes were learned. School should be the place where you learn for the pleasure of learning because it has value once you have mastered basic reading, writing and arithmetic.

If there is no value or pleasure in learning then it doesn't matter what is being taught.

[Thomzo]

I think you guys have probably covered all of my ideas already but here goes anyway. Apart from learning how to read and write (which, unfortunately, seems to be a bit advanced for many graduates these days), children should be able to:

work out which items are the best value in the supermarket
understand mortgages, loans, savings and tax
how to manage their own personal budget
replace a fuse, change a lightbulb, carry out basic repairs to their property safely
how to grow their own veg and keep a garden tidy
how to cook simple, healthy food from scratch (and why they should do so)
how to cope with their emotions such as anger and fear
repair clothes and soft furnishings, basic sewing skills
decorating skills
how to keep a house clean
first aid and an understanding of simple medicine (like, how to recognise the symptons of a heart attack)
how to drive and look after a car (at school not by a private driving instructor who charges a fortune to only teach you just enough to past the test in your local town).
how to care for animals (i.e. if you want a pet you have to buy food and take it to the vet)
basic childcare (might put off a few teenage pregnancies)
sex education
how to consider the effects of their actions on the world around them and to put themselves in the shoes of others

I know that most of the above should be taught at home but it just doesn't seem to happen these days.

Cheers
Zoe

[Rosendula]

... I must point out that if you are in Scotland *PLEASE DO NOT USE EDUCATION OTHERWISE*. They have given many parents in Scotland incorrect advice (the advice as to how to remove a child from school) and people have gone to court because of the bad advice (and in at least one case the child left the court with a teacher and NOT his mother)

Gosh! I didn't know that. Thanks for the info, Annpan.
Has anyone else had any experience of Education Otherwise in other areas of the UK?

[snapdragon]

I would like to teach the parents to teach the children - common sense, thought for others, gardening, philosophy, cooking, use of hand tools, knitting spinning weaving sewing, fire lighting (in a hearth and in the open) and fire fighting, elements of engineering, geography especially understanding the map of their own country and those around it , repair reuse and renovation, mathematics, spelling and use of language


all the sort of things that used to happen in homes before television, cheap electricity, and too many cars


ho hum
not a chance i guess

[jim]

Since we cannot predict the needs of the future with any degree of accuracy providing long lists of what children should learn merely becomes a copy of the Nationalist Curriculum which politicians of every kind have imposed on schools. That is, largely irrelevant to the needs of the future and the needs of the individual instructed, because these long lists and curricula are the property of the prejudices (yes, we ALL have them!) of those who produced them. They are not what the individual under instruction necessarily needs. (There is also the power relationship implied by the term INSTRUCTION, do we necessarily know what someone needs better than they do? Or is it that we believe we know better? Yes, we all have our prejudices!)

Education is the bringing out of latent qualities in the individual and should continue throughout that persons life. In order to achieve this people must learn how to become flexible, effective learners. Once this is achieved everything else will follow.

Ways of achieving this have already been documented in Plowden and the work of A.S. Neill, neither of which I will attempt to paraphrase as it would take more than the allowed 60,000 characters.

The responsibility lies with all Educators:- parents, family, friends, and even those dreadful people who choose to become professional teachers.(God help us!)

Sorry to sound so pedantic but it's an occupational hazard,

Love and Peace
Jim

[oldfella]

Thanks to you all for your thoughts and I think I should explain the reason I posed the question. I had been talking to a friend that evening and he had made the comment about the problems of world being the worst that he had ever thought of, through out his life 'He is 82 yrs old' and added that he was glad his wife had been unable to have children. In his words the world had past the Point of no Return and he felt that we should be teaching self survival techniques in the schools, a bit extreme I thought, But is it ? Maybe not, are any of us a 100 percent certain that we can get through this situation that we have created. So I posed the question in this context, for it is my feeling that he may well be right

[Big Al]

Thanks to you all for your thoughts and I think I should explain the reason I posed the question. I had been talking to a friend that evening and he had made the comment about the problems of world being the worst that he had ever thought of, through out his life 'He is 82 yrs old' and added that he was glad his wife had been unable to have children. In his words the world had past the Point of no Return and he felt that we should be teaching self survival techniques in the schools, a bit extreme I thought, But is it ? Maybe not, are any of us a 100 percent certain that we can get through this situation that we have created. So I posed the question in this context, for it is my feeling that he may well be right

Refering to my post about yoga and pillates maybe we think the same.

Since the world was going to end in 2000 I stocked up on supplies of rice, pasta, tinned foods, bottled water etc and even now 8 years on I still rotate and use the produce I have in store. I'm installing a wood fire and looking into solar electric. I have a supply of rainwater totaling around 2 tonnes and I keep money out of the banks....well all £120 of my savings that is although this is not in my house it is accessable. I am growing food in the back garden which can be protected easily if need be. I can fire a weapon and know self defence skills having trained in the army but the future does scare me.

My son who is 19 thinks I'm away with the mixer....... but come the revolution brother...........

[Rod in Japan]

However bad things get, sophisticated societies rarely collapse quickly enough for people to need outdoor survival skills and the dubious benefits that military training provides. Social networking and economic adaptive skills are far more valuable, as the examples of Russia and Cuba in the 90s amply demonstrate.

[jim]

I agree with Rod that civilizations don't crumble overnight, although in terms of history their collapse can appear to be fast. Survivalist tactics are largely unnecessary and in some cases would exacerbate a bad situation. (That doesn't mean we should give up on keeping a good store cupboard and rotate the contents. Always a good idea Big Al.)

Rod pointed out the vegetable gardens (hortopacheo?) of Cuba as an example of adapting to difficult circumstance. (Saw examples on Monty Dons' 80 gardens in March '08, wonderful!) Something the developed world is going to have to adopt as we go down the other side of peak oil. Something people on the "ish" site are working towards, each at their own level.

Which brings me back to the point of my previous entry. Education should enable people to become flexible, effective, independent and adaptable learners, not the recipients of lists of skills. They should continue this education throughout their life. Adaptability is the way forward,

Love and Peace
Jim

[oldfella]

Rod and Jim, you both have of course valid points, but the fact is, that in my life time the world population has increased by 3 times, which means that we are eating ourselves out of house and home, so that would mean that more starvation which result in the diminution of wild life, the extinction of species, and the populations of the underdeveloped counties who in the main ignorant of sophisticated society and are driven by empty belly's and the protection their lives and that of their children. In the same way, civilized society will continue to exploit the poor and weak to further their own greed and well being. This history has taught us, and for me I have grave doubts that we, as the enlightened and civilized society are prepared to make the sacrifice that we will have to make. Education of course will help and I do not advocate survival tactics, but as the great majority of the civilized society is ignorant of even the basics of food production, animal husbandry, the use of basic tools, in other words how to survive in a different world that exist today. You can of course argue that it is the families responsibility to teach their children these things but we have never taught, and most you are self taught as I am, and I admit I really know very little.