A Big Question

[Penny Lane]

I agree with Ann, bring them BACK into the community. Make them more aware/respectful of their neighbours and the people around them. Educate them in the ways of their community.

As that's not possible in this lifetime, they really should be taught skills. Things that will help them when they're adults, not algebra!
The world is becoming so technology-focused, one day they'll realise that everyone can use a computer but no-one can cook, sew, grow veg etc.

[invisiblepiper]

Does the invisible piper mime the flower of scotland ??[/quote]

MM mm mm mmmmmmmm MM mm MM mmmmmmmmmmm

But only cos I forgot the words ....again!

[Clara]

I think I sense an Ish Unschooling movement developing!

I agree with most of what has been said, teach kids how to look after themselves and others rather than groom them to participate in an economy that has got us in this mess. If it weren't for the fact that my LO needs to learn the skill of speaking spanish I wouldn't send her to school, so my next best bet is to send her to a steiner school where the curriculum does include gardening, cooking, learning seasonal rhythms etc.

I've spent a lot of time working in schools in the UK, the NC is a one size fits all that denies common sense. I once had to sit in with a group of 12 year old boys in a french class to manage their behaviour. They were sweet enough kids, but understandably distracted in a french class because their english reading and writing skills ranged from unmeasurable to age 7, but because of the constraints of the NC they had to sit there, I wasn't allowed to take them out and work on their english reading and writing. That was 5 hours a week of their lives wasted. What kind of message does that give out to kids about the value of education in general? Stepping away from the rant now......

[Rosendula]

That was 5 hours a week of their lives wasted. What kind of message does that give out to kids about the value of education in general? Stepping away from the rant now......

I agree entirely. When I think of all the time I was in school that was wasted it really gets me mad. My son has just left school. He's one of these clever people that can read something or be told it once and then never forgets. In my opinion, he would be ideally suited to studying and then teaching at university because he is academically minded. But after 11 years of numb-skull education he is sick of it and has found a job as an apprentice electrician. A good job, but I don't think it's the ideal job for him. I really think that if his school education had been interesting and relevant that he would have continued with education and would have found something much more satisfying. For now, after 3 weeks in his new job he is happy, but I feel that is because he feels grown up and is excited about getting paid! I do worry about his future. He knows I think he's made the wrong choice, but I haven't tried to pressure him into doing anything other than follow his heart. I just made him promise that if ever he is unhappy to not be afraid to change and do something different.

[Masco&Bongo]

Children should learn how to "run a home", and I don't mean that in a patronising, "little woman in the house" way...

When I left school (12 years ago) I knew nothing about budgeting, mortgages, tax; I couldn't change a plug or a fuse; the cooking lessons were diabolical (I had been instructed to make a sandwich with more than 2 fillings, scones, fairy cakes and a pizza); the sewing lessons were fun but useless (I had to make a wall hanging, and learnt about batik etc)

I should have been taught how to manage my money, how to do bits and pieces around the house, how to cook a "proper meal" and how to use different cuts of meat and different vegetables, how to make clothes, or at the very least how to mend or adjust clothes.

I was lucky in that I adore food, so taught myself to cook (my mum, lovely as she is, sees cooking and eating as a chore), taught myself to grow my own veg and taught myself animal husbandry, learnt the hard way about managing money and debt; and still struggle with the whole textiles/clothes thing!

History and literature and technology were interesting and fun (science and maths not so) but really, apart from the "3 R's" I can't say that I've ever used much of what I learnt at school in my day to day life. Although it has come in handy in pub quizzes.....

[weatherwax]

I tried to reply to this yesterday but lost the whole epic piece I wrote :)

Anyway, this subject is one very close to my heart, I have worked in a school for the last 9 years that taught using a skills based curriculum, using RSA competencies from their opening minds paper, learning 2 learn skills and somerset curriculum skills.

Teaching is child led and they are taught skills, these could be thinking skills, in particular how to plan and think through a problem to its natural conclusion, believe it or not children are often not given time to think things through properly in school, how then can we expect them to make an informed and carefully judged decision when faced with a real life problem.
Children are taught how to take risks, how to experience failure and how this can help breed success. Every child has the chance to experience choice, one morning a week the children choose from a list of options (workshops) this can be anything from gardening to football, poetry to karaoke, cycling to recycling (trash to treasure), they can do beauty therapy with the local college making natural beaty products, they can learn cooking, baking, science investigations, languages, arts, dancing, journalism, archaeology... the list is endless and the whole community are encouraged to volunteer their skills.

In an assignment at university, when writing about what was happening at the school I wrote "It is said that it takes a village to raise a child, perhaps then it takes a whole community to educate a child" I still feel very passionately about this and wish more people saw that communities have a lot to offer children and young adults and that the same children and young adults through this can be instilled with a pride and respect for their community and their surroundings.

The children leave us as confident, resourceful human beings who have a whole toolkit of skills that they can adapt and apply in many situations. Unfortunately they then go to secondary school where many of them go to just being a nameless face bombarded with facts and figures which only a small percentage of them will ever use again.

I could go on but would probably just carrying on rambling,
thanks for listening

[Fizzy Izzy]

A lot of this strikes a chord with me. Having been a teacher for the past year, I see so many children who are 'switched off' because there is nothing of relevance for them in school.

I really don't like the strict timetabling and rigid curriculum and teaching to the test (but you have to do it!). It would be wonderful to have freedom for them to choose a direction and interests for themselves and for teachers to be a resource and a mentor. Or perhaps to have projects - running a small business, tending a garden etc. They would learn more Maths, Science and English this way, than sitting in a classroom being forcefed facts.

I love the idea of Logic lessons etc. But part of this is something that you learn from life and interacting with other people, especially responsible adults. Far too often, children are expected to play/interact mostly with people their own age. You learn best in an environment with a range of ages, I think. I think Annpan is right about this being an important role of the family and community.

You can tell I've really thought about this! When I have children, I'm not sure I will send them to school. At the moment I'm not keen on the idea, having seen how they work from the inside!

Edited: for spelling mistake.

[Clara]

That was 5 hours a week of their lives wasted. What kind of message does that give out to kids about the value of education in general? Stepping away from the rant now......

I agree entirely. When I think of all the time I was in school that was wasted it really gets me mad. My son has just left school. He's one of these clever people that can read something or be told it once and then never forgets. In my opinion, he would be ideally suited to studying and then teaching at university because he is academically minded. But after 11 years of numb-skull education he is sick of it and has found a job as an apprentice electrician. A good job, but I don't think it's the ideal job for him. I really think that if his school education had been interesting and relevant that he would have continued with education and would have found something much more satisfying. For now, after 3 weeks in his new job he is happy, but I feel that is because he feels grown up and is excited about getting paid! I do worry about his future. He knows I think he's made the wrong choice, but I haven't tried to pressure him into doing anything other than follow his heart. I just made him promise that if ever he is unhappy to not be afraid to change and do something different.

I really wouldn't worry about your son. My brother is an electrician, entered as an apprentice, my sister-in-law is a Phd senior lecturer in english lit......I know who gets paid more and is less stressed (and is more useful to have around ). If in time he really needs to use that academic side of his nature, it'll come to him. Besides as someone who went to uni at 18 and dropped out, I really feel like a university education is wasted on the young, best to get some life experience first, find out more about what interests you, then go into it with real passion and commitment.

[Rod in Japan]

When I was at school, feminism was having its way, and boys were supposed to learn housey things, so the curriculum sprouted "Home Economics". First I learned how to make a jam tart and a cheese and piccalilli sandwich, the cornerstones of a nutritious and flavoursome diet. Then I learned to make a stuffed rabbit, something I really needed as an eleven year old, and how nylon is made. That was about it. In spite of the name of the 'subject', I didn't learn how to make and maintain a budget, how to keep accounts, and how to manage a bank account. I also didn't learn how to make beer, compost, or bread, things which might have been good. However, on the jam tart making day, my mum had to come and pick me up in the car, otherwise the jam would have got spilt on the long walk home. It was truly a vile dessert when we bravely ate it. My parents had some harsh things to say about "Home Economics", and the political forces that had brought it into existence. I couldn't but agree.

Far too often, children are expected to play/interact mostly with people their own age. You learn best in an environment with a range of ages, I think.

Yes, I agree with that. My son's school sometimes has 'vertical classes days' when they mix up the years. It brings out the best in all of them.

[oldfella]

How about we set up our own school, with you folk running it and setting the agenda I am sure that you would have them queuing at the doors, Parents and Kids.

[Fizzy Izzy]

My son's school sometimes has 'vertical classes days' when they mix up the years. It brings out the best in all of them.

What a good idea! I hope more schools catch onto that.

I really feel like a university education is wasted on the young, best to get some life experience first, find out more about what interests you, then go into it with real passion and commitment.

Yes, I sometimes feel that my degree was wasted in someway... I love my subject (Maths), but I hadn't really learnt how to work at something you care about. School does definitely not teach you that! If I did my degree again now, I would put so much more into it. And I know that other people at that age were much less ready than I was.

How about we set up our own school, with you folk running it and setting the agenda I am sure that you would have them queuing at the doors, Parents and Kids.

I once talked hypothetically with a friend of mine about home educating our children together, possibly with a couple of other friends too. Like a kind of very small community school. The idea being that some days, the kids are at one house and some days at another (so the parents get a rest!), sometimes altogether and sometimes just with their own family. This would've worked wonderfully since she is arty, creative and has studied things like Pyschology and History. I am logical and mathematical and love being out in nature. The children would get a really rounded education. Unfortunately she has school age children now and I have yet to have any children! Her kids are very unhappy in school, but she won't take them out because she is worried that she can't teach them everything on her own, plus she has other responsibilties during the day. Hence our wonderful plan. I just wish it could be reality.

Sorry this post got rather long!

[Annpan]

How about we set up our own school, with you folk running it and setting the agenda I am sure that you would have them queuing at the doors, Parents and Kids.

I once talked hypothetically with a friend of mine about home educating our children together, possibly with a couple of other friends too. Like a kind of very small community school. The idea being that some days, the kids are at one house and some days at another (so the parents get a rest!), sometimes altogether and sometimes just with their own family. This would've worked wonderfully since she is arty, creative and has studied things like Pyschology and History. I am logical and mathematical and love being out in nature. The children would get a really rounded education. Unfortunately she has school age children now and I have yet to have any children! Her kids are very unhappy in school, but she won't take them out because she is worried that she can't teach them everything on her own, plus she has other responsibilties during the day. Hence our wonderful plan. I just wish it could be reality.

Sorry this post got rather long!

That sounds ideal, I have made many friends with similarly aged children (I have a 2 year old) but not one of them would think twice about dropping their child at the school gates age 4 and driving off to the shops, or home to daytime TV and a cup of tea.

Most parents (and the ones I am friendly with are caring, loving, intelligent) seem to regard school as either childminding, or a social event. It is neither.

I am glad so many have agreed with me (let's start the revolution) Everything that has been discussed can be taught at home as well, if not better than in a classroom.

I plan to keep E at home with me, we will live our own life, not governed by the school bell, bullies or homework.

[weatherwax]

Most parents (and the ones I am friendly with are caring, loving, intelligent) seem to regard school as either childminding, or a social event. It is neither.

Hurray!

I have had some awful experiences where parents have been concerned.... any one who knows me would tell you that I am fair and that my philosophy is that given the correct encouragement any child can achieve at anything that they put their mind to (a child said to me "I can't draw" my reply to this was "you can draw, you can hold a pencil and make marks on the paper" perhaps they couldn't draw as well as they would like to be able to or as well as their friend but they certainly could draw and the child in question was very good at creative writing, and I explained that not everyone can be brilliant at everything but that is no reason to give up on something and not do it) (but I digress)
Another childs parents came in and complained that their child was unhappy because I was not giving their child enough praise, they agreed that he had progressed and that he had received some praise but just not enough..... another parent came in when I sat their child on a table on their own for a few days because they were disrupting the rest of the class.

I must say I have had some wonderful experiences with parents too, parents who are actually interested in what their child is doing and who back up everything that you do and say, but unfortunately these are getting few and far between these days.

Trying to make some parents understand that school is where their children learn and not somewhere they go so that they can go, shopping, to the pub etc... is like banging your head against a brick wall. Many people are far to eager to get their children off of their hands and into school, nursery etc.... even rushing their children in to potty training because their nursery of choice won't take children in nappies!

Children grow so fast and each stage of their life whizzes by, my own children are now 17 and 19 and I have cherished every moment I have been lucky enough to spend with them, but they are not babies for long

[sleepyowl]

Maths without calculators being aloud unless it's triganomatry.

More useful languages French is not as widely spoken language as Spanish, Mandarin or Hindi & make it compulsary again to learn atleast one language.

Ettiquette, I'm not posh but a lot of people think I am because I was brought up to behave in an acceptable manner & to speak properly.

Sex education, for all & from a lot younger age as countries that educate their children younger actually have fewer teenage pregnancies and a lower rate of STIs

Instead of R.E have equality & culture instead & not allow schools to promote one faith over another that is what Sunday school & other religious centre based classes are for

Cooking, gardening, basic carpentry, basic metal work, basic electronics & plumbing, basic needlecraft

[Rosendula]

This is such an interesting thread. Thank you, oldfella, for starting it. It's one of those threads that makes me want to reply to every single message, most of which just to say I agree.

Having subjected my older two children to schooling, we have decided that unless something happens to stop us we are going to home educate Katie (2 1/2). Or should I say, 'continue home educating' her. For other people who are interested, there is a wonderful organisation called Education Otherwise ("http://www.education-otherwise.org/index.htm"). I would strongly urge interested people to visit the site and sign up to the emailing list because there are political changes going on that could make home education difficult in the future, and they need people to be active in their campaigns to protect our rights to home educate.