The ethical cost of self sufficiency

[possum]

Being self sufficient is not the same as living sustainable or environmentally friendly (not that they are mutually exclusive though).
We move here with the dream of being as self sufficient as possible. However along that route we have had to make compromises - we had land and no fences - so no animals, so we bought an old tractor and slasher to keep the grass down - one more diesel eating beast to roam around the planet. I have set up a large herb garden and maintain a large veggie garden, I also work full time, I don't have the time I would like to have to be able to weed everything, so bought a plastic backpack sprayer and some weed killer in order to clear the paths and kill the weeds prior to planting.
We have a huge garden, so we bought a petrol powered weed eater (metal bladed strimmer type thing) in order to keep it under control.
As well as the tractor and slasher we own two petrol lawnmowers (different sizes) as there is so much grass to keep under control.
We wanted to grow fruit trees so had to put in plastic irrigation pipes here there and everywhere and oh pay for the electricity to pump the water.
We have so many huge shelterbelt trees that we are having a guy coming with a huge saw blade on a vehicle with caterpillar tracks to do a major trim on them. After that we will have so much wood that we will try selling it as firewood, however before that we would need to buy a second hand log splitter.

So in all our desire for self sufficiency has resulted in us being more dependent on machinery and electricity.

Life is definitely better, but I feel that we are being less environmentally friendly than when we had a standard UK back garden and could garden organically.

[contadino]

In one of the books on self-sufficiency that I picked up before making the change, the author explains that whole concept as a line, with complete dependency on an income at one end, and complete self-sufficiency at the other. He says you have to identify where on the line you're comfortable - at the extreme self-sufficient end, you'd be making your own clothes, and buying in nothing (because you're penniless). Obviously this lifestyle is only for the hardcore.

Personally, I'm now pretty close to self-sufficiency, but I doubt I'd ever want to reach the end of the line. For example, I'm happy buying clothes from the 2nd-hand section in the market, and until our goats arrive we'll continue to buy milk and cheese from the local farm. I can pay for these things using money that I make selling excess produce and olive oil, and by having a couple of gardening clients. I think the balance is right for me - I get to spend the majority of my time working for me, and maybe a day a week earning some money.

What the author really didn't explain is the capital investment needed to move along the line - in your case this would include shelling out for the likes of irrigation systems and fencing. I spent the first 2 years dipping into savings at a horrific rate, but it gradually levelled out and I haven't touched the savings account this year. I always seem to have opted for the 'pay out for such-and-such now and we will never need to buy such-and-such again' option.

I guess what I'm saying (and apologies for it being in a round about way) is that you really need to focus on your goals for a long time in order to achieve them, and it takes a shocking amount of cash to become more self-sufficient. Maybe it's just my poor budgeting, but when we were planning our move, my estimates (in time and cost) were woefully low, but in hindsight, I can't see what I could've done differently to have come up with better numbers.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

What the author really didn't explain is the capital investment needed to move along the line - in your case this would include shelling out for the likes of irrigation systems and fencing. I spent the first 2 years dipping into savings at a horrific rate, but it gradually levelled out and I haven't touched the savings account this year. I always seem to have opted for the 'pay out for such-and-such now and we will never need to buy such-and-such again' option.

I guess what I'm saying (and apologies for it being in a round about way) is that you really need to focus on your goals for a long time in order to achieve them, and it takes a shocking amount of cash to become more self-sufficient. Maybe it's just my poor budgeting, but when we were planning our move, my estimates (in time and cost) were woefully low, but in hindsight, I can't see what I could've done differently to have come up with better numbers.

This is very insightful, I think, and I would agree with it whole-heartedly.

We make most of our income from running gites. In the sense that these are very much our own assets, I regard it as a form of self-suffciency, certainly when coupled with the produce we get from our single acre.

I would like to go further along the path to food and fuel self-sufficiency, but without taking on debt (and - personally - I regard debt as being contrary to a SS lifetyle), I cannot yet do this. But eventually I will add a few more acres, more livestock, some woodland and head more toward a farming activity.

Fine and dandy.

But the activity that will fund this is the gites. And I have to admit that I wonder sometimes if this is entirely ethical: after all, people burn a lot of hydrocarbon on holiday and the level of waste from the gites is far higher than that from our own home.

In my defence I would add that we are doing a lot of work to reduce the environmental impact of the business. In fact, if we weren't spending so much of the gross income on stripping out oil boilers, putting in heat pumps, double glazing, solar water heating, etc, etc I'd get my "farm" a sight quicker.

It is all about compromise.

[Rod in Japan]

I've been thinking about this too as I spend my weekends weeding my plot rather than doing something creative with it. My thoughts are of the highly realistic "If I win the lottery, I will spend the money on..." kind, and the answer comes out either "a virtuous but unemployable youth with a yen for agriculture" or "a worthy old fellow with no income and no particular objection to pulling weeds all day".

I suppose that I could just about afford that without winning the lottery, but then I would have to justify employing somebody with pretty reliable sales at the local supermarket and roadside tourist trap.

I think I'll have to pull up some more weeds to give me time to think this one through a bit more.

Incidentally, we've been having a bit of a drought, and the nice lady who brings round the water bill said "Your bill seems to be double this month. Have you been watering a lot?" and when I assented she said, "It would be much cheaper just to buy produce at the supermarket", and I was struck by the truth in what she said. I'm sure the local farmers water their veg with pond water as opposed to the tap water which I've been forced to use since my rain butts got emptied. I will increase the number of rain butts gradually, but I must think about the supermarket compromise too.

[mrsflibble]

I always see minor debates like this as strange; this site is selfsifficientish. I am just that, ok we're dependant on jim's income but we grow some veg. I see the travel I do as a local photographer being offset by the plants I grow (and the alows which grow themselves). it's all give and take and I'll stop rambling as we've just had a very nice BBQ in our old washing machine (1 point for recycleing; 1 deducted for sending carbon smoke into the atmosphere) and I'm slightly drunk. you can often tell if I'm posting drunk, my typing improves.

[contadino]

Hmmm...I think you're mixing up being ecological with self-sufficiency. Issues like pollution, CO2 emissions, recycling and climate change all relate to ecology. Self-sufficiency is an economic model for a lifestyle where money makes a minimal impact on you.

The two things occasionally intersect, but really are a completely different set of goals. For instance, anyone completely self-sufficient wouldn't use commercial weedkiller as they wouldn't be able to make it themselves. This means they'd reduce their pollution and encourage bio-diversity, but that wouldn't be their prime driver.

[Rosendula]

What the author really didn't explain is the capital investment needed to move along the line - in your case this would include shelling out for the likes of irrigation systems and fencing. I spent the first 2 years dipping into savings at a horrific rate, but it gradually levelled out and I haven't touched the savings account this year.

I quite agree. I try hard to be as self-sufficient as I can, but with no money to invest in land I am very restricted. I live in a rented house, having been knocked off the property ladder during the last recession, and never being able to get back on it without sacrificing ALL my time spent with my children - something I am not willing to do for material possessions. Many people who decide to become self-sufficient do so by selling up their highly priced city homes, multiple gas-guzzling cars, etc., etc. When you don't have any of these, you just don't get that giant step up. I'm not complaining. In fact, living in the house I do I have never been happier. I have a small, but very usable garden, plus an allotment and I'm on the list for another allotment. But I am waiting for the day when someone brings out a book to show me how to be completely self-sufficient from scratch, with no money to invest in it.

Incidentally, we've been having a bit of a drought, and the nice lady who brings round the water bill said "Your bill seems to be double this month. Have you been watering a lot?" and when I assented she said, "It would be much cheaper just to buy produce at the supermarket", and I was struck by the truth in what she said. I'm sure the local farmers water their veg with pond water as opposed to the tap water which I've been forced to use since my rain butts got emptied. I will increase the number of rain butts gradually, but I must think about the supermarket compromise too.

I understand what you're saying here, Rod. When I took on my allotment, my auntie (who's husband has an allotment) warned me that they are very expensive to maintain, due to all the fertilizers, weed-killers, composts, etc., etc., that you 'have' to buy. Erm, well, I tend not to spend my money on these things, so for me, the allotment is cheap. If I had to pay for water during a drought, though, well that would be a different matter. Still, I think I would persevere with the allotment, because like you, I find it is a good time for thinking and getting my head around things. I also get a great amount of satisfaction from it, find it lifts my mood and raises my spirits, the food is much tastier, and I know it is chemical-free.

I always see minor debates like this as strange; this site is selfsifficientish. I am just that, ok we're dependant on jim's income but we grow some veg. I see the travel I do as a local photographer being offset by the plants I grow (and the alows which grow themselves). it's all give and take and I'll stop rambling as we've just had a very nice BBQ in our old washing machine (1 point for recycleing; 1 deducted for sending carbon smoke into the atmosphere) and I'm slightly drunk. you can often tell if I'm posting drunk, my typing improves.

We are also dependent on Richard's (part-time) income. Without it, we wouldn't be able to have any little daytrips to the sea-side or the moors or the forest, and living on the edge of a city in a tightly-packed community, we do need to get away now and again. I also feel it is important for my little girl to know there is a big, wide world out there. We go for our daytrips in the car, as there are 5 of us if we all go and just couldn't afford to get the bus into town and then pay the extortionate rates for the train. I do not, and will not feel guilty about this. There are many, many other, bigger and better ways of cleaning up the planet that can be done without me depriving my kids of an occasional bit of fun. Oh, and we also need Richard's income to pay the rent, council tax, and other essential stuff. There are some things you can't get away from.

Hmmm...I think you're mixing up being ecological with self-sufficiency. Issues like pollution, CO2 emissions, recycling and climate change all relate to ecology. Self-sufficiency is an economic model for a lifestyle where money makes a minimal impact on you.

The two things occasionally intersect, but really are a completely different set of goals. For instance, anyone completely self-sufficient wouldn't use commercial weedkiller as they wouldn't be able to make it themselves. This means they'd reduce their pollution and encourage bio-diversity, but that wouldn't be their prime driver.

I think the original thread was to point out that having the land and the nice things that go with it can be costly, both in environmental and financial terms, if you are not yet ready to reduce money-making work and do things yourself. When I joined this forum is was because I enjoy being self-sufficientish, and would like to be more so. I didn't join because I care for the environment (although I do). I do get the feeling, however, that the majority of people who want to be self-sufficient also care greatly for the environment, and it can sometimes be difficult to do both. You really have to weigh up sometimes which is more important to you.

[Flo]

This discussion that has set me thinking about self sufficiency. There have been periods in my life where the family has been fairly self sufficient. But having ended up in social housing accommodation on a state pension, I've suddenly realised how far removed from self sufficiency I've come. Right so the allotment knocks a big hole in dependence on the supermarket for part of the year. But to preserve things, it's a case of using power and freezer as there is no way of keeping things bottled in a cool cellar and preserving using a stove fired by wood as we used to do on the farm when I was a child. After leaving home, at one point the family house was heated by sea coal from the beach and wood that came as part of work.

After 18 months on the allotment I can see how to plan and preserve next year to extend what is produced for more of the year. No the allotment doesn't require machinery except for a hedge cutter to speed up the work on the hedges (hand clippers take all week ).

But to be self sufficient around the house If the utilities were suddenly disconnected I would be severely tested at the moment - water would be impossible as there is absolutely no alternative supply in town and with the chimney being the vent for the gas fire from both this flat and the one upstairs there is no way that it would be possible to use a fireplace with wood. Hmm. Could I make my own clothes? probably as I have the know how though it's well out of practice ... Could I make my own furniture? Nope as I am the most kack handed individual ever in that area I hate flat pack furniture though I can assemble the stuff but nope nothing more complex than that. Tis an interesting line of thought to pursue though as I'm used to being a lot more self sufficient that I am at present.

But being ecological and generally green is relatively easy in many ways here.

[LBR]

This subject is one I find in my thought fairly often. It's just there, calling me to come to terms with it more and more, has been for many years.

Here's a slice of how I look at it today:

Every choice for something is a choice against many other things. If I choose to drink tea now, I'm choosing not to drink everything else just now.

All things are the result of thought. All things are symbols. The symbols point to the thought. If the thought is based in a sincere desire to offer honest goods and services, there is a true principle behind the symbol. For me, the goal of self-sufficiency is the goal of self-governance, rather than operating completely independently of others.

A couple of examples: I am good at cutting hair. My mother is good at sewing and mending. We trade. I am good at typing and with words. My SO is good at fixing things and how mechanical things work. I cook, do most of the dishes, cut his hair, give back rubs, and he fixes things and takes me out to eat sometimes.

I don't see self-sufficiency as not needing others at all, but, I do have the goal of being free from public utilities and the need to shop for most food. The dream to live on land I own, with my own water supply, and off the grid, is always there. Meanwhile, I do what I can where I am. My grandmother grew up with an outhouse, open fireplaces, kerosene lamps, and a well or a pump. The kitchen was a separate building. Laundry was boiled in a big pot out in the yard over an open fire. I don't think I am up to that much hard, physical labor. But, I dream of something similar. It's why I try to swap more services, and goods, rather than using money as the means of thanks.

The choices I make in this direction fit what I am able to do. I have been going forward in this direction for about 35 years and find my lifestyle less encumbered by worldly desires and distractions.

To walk this way with poise and balance is so different for each of us. It's part of why I really enjoy this forum. There is so much friendly room for being "ish". I like the direction of self-sufficiency and I like the "ish".

[DominicJ]

I suppose its a journey your still making. At some point, you should either be fencing and keeping animals, or digging up the grass and expanding your food production.
That solves your petrol/diesel problem.

My view is, we have a line. The government wont let us be self sufficient because it places large demands on us via taxes, but also that provides us with opportunities. You cant spend a week with clippers trimming your hedge, but you can spend a week at work to pay tax and buy electricity to cut your hedge. If both of those, the leccy and the tax were to go, could you still cut your hedge.
If the answer is yes, your self sufficient, ish.

The capital investment required is huge, your paying for the rest of your lifes expenses up front.
If the Capital Costs of generating 10kw+ (my oven and hob full whack) of electricity was low, microgeneration would be standard and the national grid wouldnt be required.
Lets say a PV system costs £5k, do you have 5 friends who could all chip in £1k for 5 years? Roll a dice to see who gets the system this year?

As for a lottery win, I've already picked out my 300acre manor house for this fridays EM I fully intend to win :p

[Odsox]

I agree with Contadino on this, it's a personal matter of just how far along the road you want to go.

As far as I'm concerned just one step along this road is a step in the right direction and one that the vast majority of the population would never even consider, let alone contemplate doing.
Have you considered what the ratio of diesel that you use is compared to what would have been used delivering ALL you food to you from far flung places ? It may not be much, but it all helps.

I can't see how anyone could be totally self sufficient or why anyone would want to be. It may sound like a grand idea, but to be totally self sufficient means just that ... everything has to be provided or manufactured by you. So what happens when your roof gets damaged in the next storm, can you make new tiles ? You might be able to fit them yourself, but what happens if you fall off the roof and break your arm, can you set it yourself ?
If you say "Ah, but I can sell some produce and pay a doctor/builder" surely that's one step back into the corporate tax paying world.

As Mrs F pointed out, this is "ish" and all we really need to do is make a start and hopefully encourage a few others along the way.