Not sure if this should go under this section but it is concerning parenting......
My 5 year old is due for his second MMR vaccination and Im terrified (again!). Although Ive heard from everyone I speak to about it that the scaremongering was just that and Ive read an article in a newspaper (OK not always the best for truths but...) that the bloke who started all the rumours was to be sued and my hubby tells me that he has already had the initial jab etc etc, there is still something that terrifies me about getting it done. The parents that had the children that 'changed' after the jabs obviously had some reason for claiming this didnt they? I have spoken to my Doctor in France who says there has been no problems here with anything concerning the MMR and he hadnt heard of the troubles in the UK.
I really need to get on with getting it done - think Im just after a few more positive responses and views about it please!
MMR Vaccination
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chadspad
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MMR Vaccination
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think you have to put things into perspective regarding MMR. Yes there are some that are allergic to the culture. However for those that are not, have you ever seen the results of so called normal unharmful childhood illnesses? Measles...deafness and encephalitis for instance. Do you really want to take the chance of your child dying or being profoundly deaf?
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... %20factors
Just my opinon
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... %20factors
Just my opinon
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hedgewizard
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Sure they did, but it's simply that autism manifests itself around the same age that MMR vaccines are given. This looks like a link, but it isn't one: there's no difference in the rates of autism in children who aren't vaccinated.The parents that had the children that 'changed' after the jabs obviously had some reason for claiming this didnt they?
The rumours came about because a single research team, in Canada I think it was, came out with some worrying results which were pretty quickly discredited. But by then someone had spoken to the papers which printed it all as if it was gospel (because hysteria sells newspapers), and once the genie's out of the bottle it's hard to put it back in. There have been numerous studies since but the evidence is clear - MMR is not linked to autism.
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Chickpea
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There is a whole other debate about vaccinations.
My children didn't have all their vaccinations because I don't agree with them. I don't like the idea of taking medicines when you're not ill. I'm not happy about the presence of antibiotics in non-organic milk and meat for example, or of fluoride in water or folic acid in bread. And don't get me started on anti-bacterial washing up liquid, laundry powder or chopping boards. I think we're all becoming over-medicated.
I think the best defence against illness is a healthy immune system, which comes from healthy diet and exercise and normal exposure to environmental pathogens.
I think our grandparents would be amused at the hysterical reaction we have to illneses like measles, mumps, and even chickenpox for heaven's sake. I still have childcare books that have chapters dedicated to these normal childhood illnesses that everbody was expected to get.
I think we're all terrified of illness nowadays. In fact we're terrified of any risk at all even though we are far safer than we have ever been, but that's a whole other rant.
Only one of my children had the MMR. He was later diagnosed with autism. It must be a coincidence, but there it is. He also caught measles, despite being vaccinated against it. My unvaccinated children didn't catch it from him. I'm entirely unconvinced by the whole vaccination thing.
My children didn't have all their vaccinations because I don't agree with them. I don't like the idea of taking medicines when you're not ill. I'm not happy about the presence of antibiotics in non-organic milk and meat for example, or of fluoride in water or folic acid in bread. And don't get me started on anti-bacterial washing up liquid, laundry powder or chopping boards. I think we're all becoming over-medicated.
I think the best defence against illness is a healthy immune system, which comes from healthy diet and exercise and normal exposure to environmental pathogens.
I think our grandparents would be amused at the hysterical reaction we have to illneses like measles, mumps, and even chickenpox for heaven's sake. I still have childcare books that have chapters dedicated to these normal childhood illnesses that everbody was expected to get.
I think we're all terrified of illness nowadays. In fact we're terrified of any risk at all even though we are far safer than we have ever been, but that's a whole other rant.
Only one of my children had the MMR. He was later diagnosed with autism. It must be a coincidence, but there it is. He also caught measles, despite being vaccinated against it. My unvaccinated children didn't catch it from him. I'm entirely unconvinced by the whole vaccination thing.
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Stonehead
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I'm generally in favour of immunisations, mainly because I've seen the results of polio, diptheria, tetanus, whooping cough and measles in my family.
Measles is highly infectious, causes high rates of mental retardation and blindness, and leaves children seriously weakened, making them very vulnerable to other diseases.
Polio results in to permanent lameness, serious deformity and death. Tetanus kills 30% of the people who contract it, while diptheria causes death and paralysis
People from my parents' generation, my grandparents' generation and my great grandparents' generation all lost siblings, cousins and friends to all of these. Others were left blind, crippled, paralysed or mentally retarded. So yes, my parents, grandparents and great grandparents rightly feared these diseases.
Immunisation programmes mean they're no longer the killers they used to be in the west, but in the Third World they're still a major cause of death among children. And the West is becoming more vulnerable again.
The Wee Lad is seriously allergic to eggs, so we had to have his immunisations in hospital but we still went ahead because of the risks and because what's known as "herd immunity" is breaking down as more people refuse to have their children immunised.
If the "herd immunity" was high enough, then we might have taken the risk of not having the immunisations. But there's an increasing risk of epidemics as herd immunity lessens and so we decided the risk of harm from the immunisations was less the risk of harm from the diseases.
I think the problem in the West is a combination of distrust in the "authorities" combined with a lack of any recent experience of these diseases and the impacts they can have.
Oh, and immunisations do "fail" on an individual level, which is why you have to immunise everybody. The idea is to reduce the risk of a disease spreading by maxmimising the number of people who cannot be infected.
Measles is highly infectious, causes high rates of mental retardation and blindness, and leaves children seriously weakened, making them very vulnerable to other diseases.
Polio results in to permanent lameness, serious deformity and death. Tetanus kills 30% of the people who contract it, while diptheria causes death and paralysis
People from my parents' generation, my grandparents' generation and my great grandparents' generation all lost siblings, cousins and friends to all of these. Others were left blind, crippled, paralysed or mentally retarded. So yes, my parents, grandparents and great grandparents rightly feared these diseases.
Immunisation programmes mean they're no longer the killers they used to be in the west, but in the Third World they're still a major cause of death among children. And the West is becoming more vulnerable again.
The Wee Lad is seriously allergic to eggs, so we had to have his immunisations in hospital but we still went ahead because of the risks and because what's known as "herd immunity" is breaking down as more people refuse to have their children immunised.
If the "herd immunity" was high enough, then we might have taken the risk of not having the immunisations. But there's an increasing risk of epidemics as herd immunity lessens and so we decided the risk of harm from the immunisations was less the risk of harm from the diseases.
I think the problem in the West is a combination of distrust in the "authorities" combined with a lack of any recent experience of these diseases and the impacts they can have.
Oh, and immunisations do "fail" on an individual level, which is why you have to immunise everybody. The idea is to reduce the risk of a disease spreading by maxmimising the number of people who cannot be infected.
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chadspad
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Chickpea, without wanting to get too personnal, were there signs of the autism before the jab? I do tend to agree with u that some things are too sterile.
Thanks everyone else for your replies - I have to admit I was very happy to read those, then I read Chickpeas and Im back to the start again
Thanks everyone else for your replies - I have to admit I was very happy to read those, then I read Chickpeas and Im back to the start again
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'cor that's a tough one! When my now four year old was due for her first vaccinations, I asked a similar question on a forum and ended up with about 40 pages of a result an argument that got so ferocious that I think people are still not talking to each other as a result! It can be a very emotive subject to be sure.
After much consideration, I decided not to vaccinate my (then) youngest initially because of the use of mercury in the MMR vaccine. Then a year or two later I discovered my now teenage step daughter, who wasn't vaccinated, got mumps (or was it measles? I can't remember) when she was a young baby and as a result she never produced any enamel to for her teeth. She already has quite a few cavities, not through poor dental hygiene but because her teeth have no protection. The dentist reckons the chances of her having all or most of her own teeth by middle age is very small indeed. They've also stopped using mercury in all vaccines.
Last year I decided to get all four of my kids update on their vaccines (a process that was started when we lived in France and had do certain vaccines before they were allowed in school).
I decided to go the vaccines for the following reasons:
1. They don't use mercury anymore
2. A doctor at my surgery also had reservations about vaccines and he did a huge amount of research and came to the conclusion that it was a good idea after examining the available evidence.
3. I decided that while its possible that there is a conspiracy by vaccination/pharmaceutical companies to hide facts etc, my experience with doctors is that there are a lot of arrogant and self righteous practitioners out there, and plenty of these doctors who like nothing more than expose the drug companies if only to serve their over-inflated sense of self (I am not saying that all doctors are like this, just that there are a lot who are!)
4. The vast majority of the anti-vaccination literature that I came across with used pretty poor arguments, often mixing logic and emotion together to create a convincing sounding but not necessarily consistent argument.
5. While I agree that overuse of anti-biotic is dangerous, I see vaccines as working in a more holistic and natural manner in that they are working with your body (by introducing small amounts of the disease so it can fight it) rather than against your body (like filling it with anti-biotics that kill off most things).
6. I am about 70% confident about being right vaccinating, and to go against the advice of multiple people who train and spend their lives studying medicine I'd have to be more like 90% sure they are wrong...
After much consideration, I decided not to vaccinate my (then) youngest initially because of the use of mercury in the MMR vaccine. Then a year or two later I discovered my now teenage step daughter, who wasn't vaccinated, got mumps (or was it measles? I can't remember) when she was a young baby and as a result she never produced any enamel to for her teeth. She already has quite a few cavities, not through poor dental hygiene but because her teeth have no protection. The dentist reckons the chances of her having all or most of her own teeth by middle age is very small indeed. They've also stopped using mercury in all vaccines.
Last year I decided to get all four of my kids update on their vaccines (a process that was started when we lived in France and had do certain vaccines before they were allowed in school).
I decided to go the vaccines for the following reasons:
1. They don't use mercury anymore
2. A doctor at my surgery also had reservations about vaccines and he did a huge amount of research and came to the conclusion that it was a good idea after examining the available evidence.
3. I decided that while its possible that there is a conspiracy by vaccination/pharmaceutical companies to hide facts etc, my experience with doctors is that there are a lot of arrogant and self righteous practitioners out there, and plenty of these doctors who like nothing more than expose the drug companies if only to serve their over-inflated sense of self (I am not saying that all doctors are like this, just that there are a lot who are!)
4. The vast majority of the anti-vaccination literature that I came across with used pretty poor arguments, often mixing logic and emotion together to create a convincing sounding but not necessarily consistent argument.
5. While I agree that overuse of anti-biotic is dangerous, I see vaccines as working in a more holistic and natural manner in that they are working with your body (by introducing small amounts of the disease so it can fight it) rather than against your body (like filling it with anti-biotics that kill off most things).
6. I am about 70% confident about being right vaccinating, and to go against the advice of multiple people who train and spend their lives studying medicine I'd have to be more like 90% sure they are wrong...
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"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." -Benjamin Franklin
"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." -Benjamin Franklin
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Martin
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I'm with Chickpea! 
As someone who reacts badly to every allopathic treatment I have had, I have never been vaccinated for anything - I lived through the 50's polio epidemics, and as a child had the usual range of scarlet fever, scarletina, measles, mumps etc......in those days, if someone had measles, and you hadn't had it, Mum would send you to play with them - the thought being "better to get it over with".
Upon the arrival of my daughter, I was faced with the dilemma of what to do - after much agonising we took the homoeopathic advice of "build a strong immune system" instead. Until she went off to agricultural college, she had none, and thrived on it - once working with horses, she took the decision to have tetanus jabs
I have many objections to the MMR jab - taking the homoeopathic viewpoint, that "crude" vaccination is a gross affront to the immune system - to combine three, and then administer it to small children is extremely questionable.
I have no confidence whatsoever in the "ethics" of the medical establishment - especially the drug companies - they've bunged the three together for financial gain, no other!
IF you require protection, homoeopaths can provide homoepathic vaccinations, which are totally safe, and just as effective!
Many years ago, I spent a couple of years teaching what they used to call "mentally subnormal" children - and it is indeed heartbreaking to see an otherwise normal child who had been mentally crippled by measles, but it was extremely rare. In around 1970, we were just beginning to see the first cases of autism - noone knew the cause, but it was seen as a particularly difficult condition to deal with - I strongly suspect that it may well be vaccine induced
It is a dreadfully hard decision to make for your child, and I have every sympathy for someone trying to make up their minds - if in doubt, I'd suggest seeking out a homoeopath, and having a chat with them first - they have no drug company pressure to "sell"
As someone who reacts badly to every allopathic treatment I have had, I have never been vaccinated for anything - I lived through the 50's polio epidemics, and as a child had the usual range of scarlet fever, scarletina, measles, mumps etc......in those days, if someone had measles, and you hadn't had it, Mum would send you to play with them - the thought being "better to get it over with".
Upon the arrival of my daughter, I was faced with the dilemma of what to do - after much agonising we took the homoeopathic advice of "build a strong immune system" instead. Until she went off to agricultural college, she had none, and thrived on it - once working with horses, she took the decision to have tetanus jabs
I have many objections to the MMR jab - taking the homoeopathic viewpoint, that "crude" vaccination is a gross affront to the immune system - to combine three, and then administer it to small children is extremely questionable.
I have no confidence whatsoever in the "ethics" of the medical establishment - especially the drug companies - they've bunged the three together for financial gain, no other!
IF you require protection, homoeopaths can provide homoepathic vaccinations, which are totally safe, and just as effective!
Many years ago, I spent a couple of years teaching what they used to call "mentally subnormal" children - and it is indeed heartbreaking to see an otherwise normal child who had been mentally crippled by measles, but it was extremely rare. In around 1970, we were just beginning to see the first cases of autism - noone knew the cause, but it was seen as a particularly difficult condition to deal with - I strongly suspect that it may well be vaccine induced
It is a dreadfully hard decision to make for your child, and I have every sympathy for someone trying to make up their minds - if in doubt, I'd suggest seeking out a homoeopath, and having a chat with them first - they have no drug company pressure to "sell"
Last edited by Martin on Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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chadspad
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My son has already had the first of the MMR vaccinations, he now requires the second. My husband says as he was fine with the first, the second will make no difference - would people agree with that?
I have no doubt that the vaccination is the right way to go - I too have heard stories of family members dying in the past - theres just an element of fear there still for some reason that I cant seem to shake. I just visualise taking him in as a normal 5 year old and then him becoming someone completely different!
I have no doubt that the vaccination is the right way to go - I too have heard stories of family members dying in the past - theres just an element of fear there still for some reason that I cant seem to shake. I just visualise taking him in as a normal 5 year old and then him becoming someone completely different!
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Welsh Girls Allotment
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It has been revealed that the doctor/scientist who made the original claim that there was a direct link between MMR and autism was actually working on developing his own MMR vacination working for a pharmecutical company, so he actually had a good reason for terrifying parents as he could pop up and say here try mine its safe.
How come we only ever hear about MMR and autism, do we really believe that the only adverse reactions to injections occur via MMR, I am sure that there are plenty of dreadful side affects with other drugs, my Dad goes to sleep within 10 mins of taking just 1 paracetamol and I am sure there are loads of people who are adversely effected by drugs but they work for the majority of the population
www.welshgirlallotment.blogspot.com
How come we only ever hear about MMR and autism, do we really believe that the only adverse reactions to injections occur via MMR, I am sure that there are plenty of dreadful side affects with other drugs, my Dad goes to sleep within 10 mins of taking just 1 paracetamol and I am sure there are loads of people who are adversely effected by drugs but they work for the majority of the population
www.welshgirlallotment.blogspot.com
Vaccination in my grand parents day...they would have been very glad of it as it would have prevented my mother nearly dying at aged 6 with diphtheria. It would have meant that she was not isolated in hospital not being to see her parents for months. It would have prevented my mother from being on oxygen and considerable worry to her parents as to if she would still be breathing in the morning.
Without vaccination we would still be seeing small pox in this country. It has been wiped out through immunisation.
Yes bwaymark the vaccines allow you body to make it's own antibodies without putting the child through any risk of the full blown illness (excluding those that have an allergy to the vacines)..therefore more natural immunity.
Autism does start to show up at around the same time as the MMR is given, unless they are really bad in which case it can be suspect much earlier. There has been no conclusional link between autism and MMR...except by the anti vaccine groups as said use emotional black mail and not conclusional facts.
To my mind one child with severe complications to the illness is one too many.
However having said this I do believe that parents should have the right to chose separate vaccines if the so which rather than a combination.
Oh and chicken pox a non harmful illness? My friend very nearly died of a year ago with in 2 days of the spots coming out he was rushed to hospital and put on life support. He didn't have it as a child despite being exposed..vacine would have prevent him being on life support for week and severe months of shortness of breathe and fatigue. Fit and healthy farmer exposed to all sorts of bacteria at that!
Without vaccination we would still be seeing small pox in this country. It has been wiped out through immunisation.
Yes bwaymark the vaccines allow you body to make it's own antibodies without putting the child through any risk of the full blown illness (excluding those that have an allergy to the vacines)..therefore more natural immunity.
Autism does start to show up at around the same time as the MMR is given, unless they are really bad in which case it can be suspect much earlier. There has been no conclusional link between autism and MMR...except by the anti vaccine groups as said use emotional black mail and not conclusional facts.
To my mind one child with severe complications to the illness is one too many.
However having said this I do believe that parents should have the right to chose separate vaccines if the so which rather than a combination.
Oh and chicken pox a non harmful illness? My friend very nearly died of a year ago with in 2 days of the spots coming out he was rushed to hospital and put on life support. He didn't have it as a child despite being exposed..vacine would have prevent him being on life support for week and severe months of shortness of breathe and fatigue. Fit and healthy farmer exposed to all sorts of bacteria at that!
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Martin
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certainly the drug companies did a very good job of discrediting the "whistle blower" - but they are extremely good at that, and have humungously large budgets for advertising, lobbying, and paying "hush money" - they NEVER withdraw anything until the body count is too high to hide any more
I heard a new statistic the other day - nowadays, ONE THIRD of all deaths are due to "iatrogenic" illness - a posh way of saying "drug induced"
It used to be 25%......
I turned my back on allopathic medicine totally over 20 years ago - and have found that there are alternative therapies which are far more effective, and miles safer than the "drugs" route - the general populace is brainwashed into trusting gps and the products they peddle - all they are is drug-company reps! :
I'll quote my aged granny, who made it to 95 - "stay away from doctors and hospitals, they're the buggers that kill you!"
I heard a new statistic the other day - nowadays, ONE THIRD of all deaths are due to "iatrogenic" illness - a posh way of saying "drug induced"
It used to be 25%......
I turned my back on allopathic medicine totally over 20 years ago - and have found that there are alternative therapies which are far more effective, and miles safer than the "drugs" route - the general populace is brainwashed into trusting gps and the products they peddle - all they are is drug-company reps! :
I'll quote my aged granny, who made it to 95 - "stay away from doctors and hospitals, they're the buggers that kill you!"
http://solarwind.org.uk - a small company in Sussex sourcing, supplying, and fitting alternative energy products.
Amateurs encouraged - very keen prices and friendly helpful service!
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chadspad
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I am a Reiki practionner and herbalist so I agree that there are far better was to go than drugs and I help my family wherever possible. However I have read the things that measles and mumps can do - wasnt there a traveller boy that died not so long ago from one of them because he didnt have the vaccination? - and I do want my son to have it, its just scaring the hell out of me again!
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2steps
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I'm with chickpea too. my son was fully vacinnated as at the time I believed I had no choice! 
after doing a ton of research my daughter was not. It all just doesn't feel right to me and then there's all the medical establishment coruption stuff. I have studied homeopathy/natural remedies and a little crystal healing and have had great success with those. homeopathy and a few diet changes changed my son, who suffers with adhd, hugely. I don't like drugs generally at all, I don't offer my children paracetamol if they have a cold, they get elderberryjam on toast or syrup or a homeopathy remedy and are always fine. They are ill very rarely too. I think the body should be allowed to deal withthings in it's own way and any help we give should go along with that not against it but don't get me wrong if needed then conventional medicine has its place, I just don't believe we should be jumping to it at the first chance.
after doing a ton of research my daughter was not. It all just doesn't feel right to me and then there's all the medical establishment coruption stuff. I have studied homeopathy/natural remedies and a little crystal healing and have had great success with those. homeopathy and a few diet changes changed my son, who suffers with adhd, hugely. I don't like drugs generally at all, I don't offer my children paracetamol if they have a cold, they get elderberryjam on toast or syrup or a homeopathy remedy and are always fine. They are ill very rarely too. I think the body should be allowed to deal withthings in it's own way and any help we give should go along with that not against it but don't get me wrong if needed then conventional medicine has its place, I just don't believe we should be jumping to it at the first chance.