Selfsufficientish.com

Zech wrote: I always vote, and always take the time to try to figure out which is the least bad of the option on offer, but I often wonder why I bother.

I'm not asking rhetorical questions here. If you can suggest a better approach, I'd be genuinely interested in hearing about it.

I think that's a really interesting question. I always vote too and I do think that's important (because although I might not be fond of our current government, I certainly don't think our political system is the worst of all possible worlds. Call me naive ;-) ). However. I think it's also important to engage 'politically with a small p' as well as with the standard political system. So I suppose in practice that means different things to different people but, I think people can try to change their individual bit of the world in a way that is reproduceable (I don't know if that's a word) by others. Whether that's by going on environmental protests, planting a community garden, engaging with politics of food & going veggie/ locavore, whatever. Something about visibly being the change you want to see in the world.

However this does fall down as a theory because it doesn't take into account someone who wants to make Bad Changes, so I need to refine it a bit .

However if you asked my other half this question he would have said exactly what OJ said above. Exactly! .

I see the 'retreat to community' (cmon,everything has to have a stupid label) as a positive move,not just selfish egotism.I've done the CND,Grunwick,and even the anti-Iraq invasion thing,and it was just a gesture at best.At worst it was just the same sort of posturing that was coming from the other side,cathartic,but pointless.Even the great 'triumph' of the poll tax riots,gave us a poll tax with another name.
I don't want to get into an analysis of human nature,but I think if you take away the centralization effect of Govt./media/machine, people just, by and large,co-operate,respect each other,and get on.

Dear Oldjerry,

Yeh, been there too. Currently working with Transition to squat derelict council owned land as a community garden, another bit of a gesture I know. I do agree with you people, may not be inherently good, but evolution has ensured that we are inherently social and

I think if you take away the centralization effect of Govt./media/machine, people just, by and large,co-operate,respect each other,and get on.

Love and Peace
Jim

oldjerry wrote:.....................I've done the CND,Grunwick,and even the anti-Iraq invasion thing,and it was just a gesture at best.At worst it was just the same sort of posturing that was coming from the other side,cathartic,but pointless.Even the great 'triumph' of the poll tax riots,gave us a poll tax with another name...................

I've done the same round of protests, but all these were essentially single issues (where the powers that be either defeated us, ignored us or sidestepped the issue, each time to greater or lesser extent aided and abetted by the Labour 'opposition'). But you can't bury your head in the sand against injustice, whether against big issues like Iraq or in our local communities, we have to make a stand and not let the rich and powerful get away with it all the time.

The thing about what is happening now is that people are coming on to the streets and saying we are not moving until the government falls and we have a new system. Also they are not relying on the 'opposition' parties but doing it themselves.
The rich and powerful will subsequently try to hijack the vacuum following these movements, but the people have grown in stature, felt their strength and they have inspired others to follow.

All this is perhaps getting away from our woods and forests, the defeat of the government I was a bit cynical about, but someone showed me that it wasn't just the shires screaming, but that new internet movements, like 38degrees, played a big part. The internet is helping people to coordinate and find their voice.

Someone told me that the 38dgrees thing, has won 9 out of its 10 causes. Not a bad record!

I am apathetic about most things, which don't directly affect me. The people who get off their bums and protest, even with fear of persecution, deserve allot of respect.

Yeah your right,in all respects.Maybe I'm too old......Fair play........ Listen ,I'm open to all new stuff,it's just the old ways that are moribund,for Gods sake,if you can touch your toes(hell,if you can see your toes) educate me!

I think (probably) any protests about things within the existing political system end up either not being successful, or, being successful but in a compromised way - I think that is just how it works with an established political system which is shoring up the interests of the Establishment to at least some extent (I haven't got my tin foil hat on ;-) ). HOWEVER I think in some respects you have to divorce the fact of the protest from whatever the ostensible outcome is, because the very fact that there is a protest (in whatever form) starts to establish a different kind of mentality and no-one knows what the consequences will be years down the line. (i.e. hopefully they will be good). And the different kind of mentality also affects the existing political system and begins to deconstruct it, it is like the thing about does language create thought or does thought create language.

I always have a feeling I would understand all this if I had ever been able to manage Gramsci, however, I couldn't get beyond the first paragraph .

Zech wrote:

gregorach wrote: If your political horizons are limited to the options provided by the Big 3 parties in the UK, there's nothing I can do for you. They're all as bad as each other

Is there an alternative?

I always vote, and always take the time to try to figure out which is the least bad of the option on offer, but I often wonder why I bother.

I'm not asking rhetorical questions here. If you can suggest a better approach, I'd be genuinely interested in hearing about it.

Sorry, I've got nothing, really. I vote Green (actually I'm a member) but I don't expect it to do any good. I'm thankful to John Michael Greer for reminding me of hexagram 62 from the I-Ching:

"Hsiao Kuo, the Preponderance of the Small.
Success. Perseverance furthers.
Small things may be done; great things should not be done.
The flying bird brings the message:
It is not well to strive upward, it is well to remain below.
Great good fortune."

Sometimes history just has to take its course. Concentrate on the small things you can do personally.

Zech wrote:

gregorach wrote: If your political horizons are limited to the options provided by the Big 3 parties in the UK, there's nothing I can do for you. They're all as bad as each other

Is there an alternative?

I always vote, and always take the time to try to figure out which is the least bad of the option on offer, but I often wonder why I bother.

I'm not asking rhetorical questions here. If you can suggest a better approach, I'd be genuinely interested in hearing about it.

You could vote in the referendum for the change to the AV system and ask all your friends and relatives to do so too. AV is far from perfect but it's a step in the right direction.

.......I give up.............