VAT rise

[oldjerry]

Erm, sorry but my point is that you CAN chose to buy a cheaper brand of washing machine, hence pay less VAT, you CAN chose to buy a second hand car on which you probably won't pay any VAT etc etc.


Zoe[/quote]

Yes you're right,in fact you could do ALL your washing by hand,but I was trying to suggest that the fairest way out of the 'economic crisis' we're apparently in,might not be to force this hardship upon the poorer section of the community.It's a bit of a blow if you have to eat out at a restaurant with one michelin star,rather than one with two,but probably preferable to shopping at cash converters as opposed to Comet.

[stevetc]

Remember Zoe, people without much money, when it comes to buying goods, tend to be forced to buy the very cheapest (all this Aldi/Lidl shite that's flooding in). It lasts two minutes and then they're snookered. 'Landfill fodder' was mentioned on another thread.

You're spot on. . . I'm on a low income . . . I vacillateee between being on benefits and working when I can get it. . . had 4 weeks work up til xmas at min wage. . . When you're on very limited shopping money, the difference between the cheapest product and the healthiest is huge. I can afford to eat healthily for half the week and starve the rest, or have a bad diet all week.

Okay, I'm lucky enough to have my wits about me enough that I can find alternatives, have a community, and can always eat quite well out of the skips round the back of the supermarket and grow (not much tho!) a bit of my own. But lotsa people aren't so able to be proactive. . .

Any VAT rise is always going to hit the poorest hardest. . . our country is perpetuating an unhealthy, uneducated, excluded underclass . . . this ain't helping . . .

[oldjerry]

I know just what your on about,and I couldn't agree more.I've always been aware of this underclass,but till recently was lucky enough and well enough to be able to produce enough food for ourselves(and some to sell) and with various part time work,live ok,I'm not interested in luxuries.This last 24 months this has gone pear shaped and we've had a real insight into rural poverty.I knew already enough people to understand what it was like,but didn't realise the constant grinding monotony,concern etc.Most of all even though you may scrape by,the disaster that is an up coming MOT,broken window,school trip,etc,that you just cant budget for.Certainly there is an underclass, powerless,alienated and voiceless. I,m sure it's similar in other countries,but we're leaving this one asap.

[Susie]

Certainly there is an underclass, powerless,alienated and voiceless.

I am agreeing with your post. I hope you feel better soon (health).

[greenorelse]

I know just what your on about,and I couldn't agree more.I've always been aware of this underclass,but till recently was lucky enough and well enough to be able to produce enough food for ourselves(and some to sell) and with various part time work,live ok,I'm not interested in luxuries.This last 24 months this has gone pear shaped and we've had a real insight into rural poverty.I knew already enough people to understand what it was like,but didn't realise the constant grinding monotony,concern etc.Most of all even though you may scrape by,the disaster that is an up coming MOT,broken window,school trip,etc,that you just cant budget for.Certainly there is an underclass, powerless,alienated and voiceless. I,m sure it's similar in other countries,but we're leaving this one asap.

I have similar worries - not for the present but certainly as the country gets poorer and poorer and the gamblers' humungous debts are called in - over here. There's still some cash sloshing around and it gives an illusion of 'wealth'.

When things really bite, people will have forgotten how to fend for themselves. They will not realise for a long, long time that without a functioning economy and the ability to participate in it, 99% of their time will be spent trying to get enough to eat.

Throughout history, providing food has been the one over-riding preoccupation for humans. The one-off boost of fossil fuels has enabled us to peek over the edge of the trench and nobody wants to go down into the mud anymore.

You have my sympathy, oldjerry, I hope you pull through. It sounds like you're already preparing to leave the country (thousands are emigrating again from Ireland). Any firm ideas where you're going to go? I wish you luck: emigration is a brave move.

[oldjerry]

Thanks for that,we're off to Italy(mrs OJ hails from there,).Trouble is there's somewhere to sell first(Dont get me wrong,we realise how lucky we are to have our own place,but thats the sum total of everything,and it's a bit of a millstone at present,as I cant make a living from it anymore,and the poll-tax bill is phenominal.It'll go by the spring or I'll send it to auction,easy come ,easy go.).There are hundreds of thousands worse off than we are,and we're bloody lucky to have the chance to leave this mess.

[TheGoodEarth]

What is you location currently OJ?

[The Riff-Raff Element]

Certainly there is an underclass, powerless,alienated and voiceless. I,m sure it's similar in other countries,but we're leaving this one asap.

Yes.

Certainly there is a pronounced rural poverty in France (and I suspect it will get worse with rising fuel prices affecting people's ability to commute into towns for work - there's precious little public transport beyond the school bus), but somehow it is different.

I can't actually put my finger on why, but for some reason it just seems a bit easier to be poor here.

[niknik]

Yes.

Certainly there is a pronounced rural poverty in France (and I suspect it will get worse with rising fuel prices affecting people's ability to commute into towns for work - there's precious little public transport beyond the school bus), but somehow it is different.

I can't actually put my finger on why, but for some reason it just seems a bit easier to be poor here.

I´d say the same goes for here too........
Mind you lots of the locals ( the vast majority mainly) still have their small holdings , and grow a fair bit of produce, and share out the surplus.
again no public transport........ but most seem to be doing ok, and there´s no generous benefits system either to fall back on

[stevetc]

My experience is limited to certain areas, but i found it easier to be really skint in france . . . There are organisations and charities in the uk that do free door for the homeless and pathetically broke . . . But i found there to be more and better quality in france. There seemed to be less of a line, too . . . In the uk it's only junkies, rough sleepers, and the like who use these services. . . In france there doesn't seem to be a line seperating them from 'normal' people . . . Families go. That's just the places i've been, mind.

[oldjerry]

Outside the UK,I've only experience of rural Italy.A big difference is in land prices,and the prices of rural property.Other than in areas where foreign demand has distorted the price,there is no great demand for rural property ,as there is in the UK.In the UK,the size of the landmass,and the communication systems mean that in England at least,most people living in rural areas can reach reach a city in 1 or 1 1/2 hrs,so if your job pays well enough,you can live in the sticks,and in consequence rural property values,and subsequently rental values are really high,and smallholdings etc become a place to keep your horse.It seems to me that in a lot of rural Italy,poorer people can still afford to live in rural areas,if a lot of people are living on smallscale holdings a community and way of life (small scale abbatoirs,people buying locally,sustainable communitiesetc)sort of sustains itself.

[greenorelse]

It seems to me that in a lot of rural Italy,poorer people can still afford to live in rural areas,if a lot of people are living on smallscale holdings a community and way of life (small scale abbatoirs,people buying locally,sustainable communitiesetc)sort of sustains itself.

That is interesting and something I've sort-of known by instinct, aided by a few trips in Europe. Why does it work there and not in these isles? Is it the people? Well, obviously it's the people GOE! You know what I mean - what gives them that ability? Is it the weather?

Once, spending a couple of weeks in a gîte in Brittany, it was simple, cheap living. Simple, local food, relaxed, lovely communities. There's hard work to produce that food but otherwise...can we learn something or do you have to up sticks?

[The Riff-Raff Element]

That is interesting and something I've sort-of known by instinct, aided by a few trips in Europe. Why does it work there and not in these isles? Is it the people? Well, obviously it's the people GOE! You know what I mean - what gives them that ability? Is it the weather?

Having slept on this, I can give you an example of what makes things easier:

Say I decide to keep a couple of pigs for meat for family use only. The law requires that I buy my ikkle piggies from a registered breeder. He has to write down on a piece of paper that he has sold them to me and puts this into a file that no-one ever looks at.

And unless I decide I too want to breed from them, that is the end of the paperwork: no ear tags, no movement notices, no holding number, nothing.

At the end of their lives, because the meat is destined only for this household, home slaughter is permitted. I call the slaughterman and he comes over, stuns and dispatches them. After that I can either butcher them myself, or I can pop the carcasses into the van and drive 6km to a village where there is a small business that butchers and vac packs meat to order.

Does all rather make the business of rearing some meat a bit more straightforward.

[123sologne]

This thread is becoming more interesting all the time even if it is to hear about some serious hardship.
I am not saying that I may have fallen on something that may explain a lot of the differences pointed here between the UK and Spain or France or other places, but my husband bought me a book for Christmas called: The Spirit Level - Why Equality is Better for Everyone by Richard Wilkinson & Kate Pickett. The subject is fairly obvious. I don't know if anybody here has read it already as it would be interesting to hear what they have to say. I have only started reading it and I find it makes very interesting reading especially as there are some graph that list countries in different ways to define the more equal and less equal based on many different things. Everything is done by different universities across the globe, so very serious research have been used. Anyway, as you can imagine the UK is not in the more equality orientated part of the graphs and in truth it is one of the less equal countries. France and Spain are more in the middle and as suspected too Sweden, Finland, Norway are in the more equality orientated part. I suspect this may explain some of the differences being mentioned here. I may be able to say more once I get to the end of the book, but if you want to read it I can only say go ahead as it is very interesting indeed.

[okra]

It seems to me that in a lot of rural Italy,poorer people can still afford to live in rural areas,if a lot of people are living on smallscale holdings a community and way of life (small scale abbatoirs,people buying locally,sustainable communitiesetc)sort of sustains itself.

As Old Jerry says rural life is still achievable in much of Europe. In Cyprus rural villages still flourish and we find the villagers are less consumerist and materialistic. They, even if they have jobs, still grow some or most of their own food and a lot of swapping and bartering goes on. Less individualistic and more co-operative lifestyles.