B&Q to stock chocolate teapots!

[Martin]

missed out on grants.............
what grants? - there was a princely 3.5 million allocated - 3 million has gone already! Grants are a ludicrous way to encourage anything - it costs a fortune to administrate, a £500 grant will cost at least the same to "administrate"!
So we basically give a churchillian salute to them, and happily offer better products, usually at about 50% of the grant-discounted prices, by circumventing the "grant grabbing cartels", and importing direct, or dealing direct with the manufacturer!
If government wants to get renewables going, using sensible parameters, I would suggest they look at the Spanish system - they will pay something like four times the price for "green" electricity - but teapot companies would HATE that, beause the "subsidy" is performance related!

[Martin]

one last teensie point - having reread the post, I think that it actually does
constitute confirmation of my phrase "a rewound washing machine motor with some off-the-shelf blades strapped on" - as absolutely bang on right!
Do tell, is it a Zanussi or an Electrolux?

[nathanbriggs]

You'l find that if you read into wind power and inverters, that there is a "time lag" before the inverter can "export" - it has to synchronise with the mains before it can do so - some systems take 3 minutes - how long does yours take?
Gusts are of no practical use, particularly with a grid-tie inverter!

Which is why I design inverters and you sell turbines, assuming the DC voltage is there for export our inverter takes in the order of milliseconds to export ( I won't say how many as it is commercially sensitive) so tell me how long does it take for a turbine under no load to accelerate in a 2- 10m/s gust?

I do not suggest that windspeeds over a roof are the same the world over - but the suggestion is made that the "average home" will generate 30% of its needs -the "average home" has a windspeed (in clear air) of 4.5m/s -

OK but I didn't ask about the "average home" and actually the quote says that homes with suitable wind can save upto 1/3 off the "average bill" we aren't stupid. There are 23 million homes in the UK 1 in a 1000 would be a pretty good market 1 in a 100 would make Windsave the largest manufacturer of green technologies in about 5 years.

If one in ten thousand did have the windspeed, they'd also have the turbulence, which as I've said precludes any realistic amounts of power being generated -

so you have data which shows the turbulence on 500 homes and its effect on pay back? If you do Windsave will happily pay for all your research we have been trying to source externally verified data for 3 years, oh but wait that was an opinion....

the noise transmission into a building structure has to be heard to be believed - it may "pass" some standard or another, but is not acceptable (if you want to sleep)!

Oh I'm sorry you've been to a site with a Windsave fitted in a couple of different wind strengths, fantastic to get the feedback, tell me which site and I will tell you what generation of bracketry it has and how much it has been improved since then. The latest generation in 10m/s wind with cavity walls and double glazed windows, I can't hear the blades over the wind, but that's just an empirical test which is why we have the dBA data.

And why no mention of the fact that as a very crude design, it relies on "furling"? - the blades turn out of the wind with an almighty "clonk"!

Where does the noise come from? the design furls out of the wind progressively it is designed entirely as a way of capturing export into higher wind speeds, any system that doesn't furl HAS to stop export at some high wind speed vastly decreasing the export/increasing the payback. Our top end export speed unpublished, why? because no one who is an "expert" would believe it.

A real turbine company designs and builds it's own blades, specifically matched to the stator

That's great for a cottage industry or a one man band, Windsave has to have production capability into the 10,000's to launch, how cheaply can you hand make 30,000 blades a month????? Then balance them, please talk about reality rather than "this is the way everyone else does it and you are ruining our fun". Windsave will in no way impact on the people who want to build their own turbine and go up the pole every week to play with the design, we want to make a fit and forget solution for every one who has the wind resource but has better things to do with their time.


Are you prepared to stipulate that at some windspeed the turbine WILL pay for itself? I ask because I am fascinated to know what your calculation is. Stipulate pole mount or whatever you want just tell me what the windspeed you think is required for payback in say less than 10 years??

we're heartily cheesed off with the total waste of our time in debunking the myths!

Have a look at forums over the next 2-3 years, it will be fun to continue this when we have more windmills out there, is it your prediction then that NO windsave customers will be happy? How many do you think we'll sell? Would you buy one second hand in 12 months after Windsave has failed and put in on a pole mount? What would you pay for it???

[Martin]

30,000 blades a month - the price will probably drop to £5 a set!
The fact remains, there are no real VERIFIED figures published by Windsave from a "typical" installation - I wonder why?
And by the way, you're pretty good at "missing points"
is it a Zanussi or an Electrolux?
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SILENT MOUNT! - you may waffle about "acceptable dbas" - most people haven't a clue what a decibel is, let alone the racket it can constitute! - and no, I haven't had a chance to listen to one of yours, they are remarkable by their total invisibility round these parts!
Ultimately what counts is what the turbine ACTUALLY produces over time, which is dependant on many factors, siting being probably THE most important feature - over the life of a product, to be deemed in any way "green" it should repay not only the energy used in making it, but to "turn a profit" - although you've carefully evaded the question- you know damned well that in almost every imaginable scenario, they CANNOT begin to pay back their cost, both in hard cash terms, and the cost to the planet of it's manufacture!
As such "green" is a misnomer - especially for a washing machine motor with some proprietary blades!

[nathanbriggs]

And by the way, you're pretty good at "missing points"
is it a Zanussi or an Electrolux?

I suppose its an AEG=Bosch :-) any other points I've missed just draw my attention to them I will try and answer, I tried to structure my posts as responses to yours as you are obviously a regular here and I'm just dropping in defending a project that has been a big part of my last few years

[The Chili Monster]

The Evening Argus (Extract):
[quote]With B&Q selling Wind turbines from Monday, Brighton and Hove City Councillors warned yesterday that they had not yet drawn up guidelines on installing windturbines, which could breach planning regulations.
Councillor Delia Forester, deputy chairman of the city’s planning committee, said without control, wind turbines could become “the next satellite dishâ€Â

[Martin]

blimey! I knew they'd schmoozed far and wide, but it would appear that they have the Almighty on side! - about 5.30 yesterday, I was writing a reply to this thread, and there was a godalmighty bang from a lightning strike! I saw a flash travel along the cables to my laptop- enormous dimming of lights - they came back up - the laptop didn't - so am at present working furiously to get services restored! (looks like laptop, modem, and 'phone line all totally fried!)
I do NOT recommend it as an experience - luckily I threw myself away from it, and am physically undamaged, but it does induce rather a dose of the "willies":?
Am posting this on a friend's computer - normal service will be resumed asap!

[nathanbriggs]

Martin, glad to hear you are alright and look forward to your return, if the lightning did physical damage to any of your cabling/laptop I would pay for reasonable quality digital images, one of my other hats is as surge protection
http://www.aelgroup.co.uk

[CG]

Are we sure that the Windsave turbine furls? I gave one a push on the tail at B&Q yesterday and it seem pretty fixed to me. I also can find nothing about furling on Windsave's site.

In regards to the inverter, can you please tell me what its cut is. If the turbine is generating 1 kw at 12.5 m/s, is that what goes into the inverter or what comes out?

On other boards it seems like the inverter is the most interesting thing, certainly not the bog-standard-over-hyped-turbine.

[Boots]

Personally, I'd be willing to buy the thing simply for its novelty value...

"See that thing up there?... No idea if it works or not, but it's saved me a heap of dosh. Lots of things have stories on my farm, you want to hear about how I came to get that?

As it was, this fella in the UK was gettin trashed on left, right and centre by this turbine dude on a website forum. Now turbine dude was a pretty emotional type and often called in to make a heap of noise about this and that, trash other peoples work and promote his own.

One day see, after he's been jabberin on about some windy teapot made of chocolate or something, up pops some guy from the company he was trashing. It was one of those moments...Kinda like when the big guy stands up in the pub scene... and the little guys eyes bug out of his head... Usually happens just before the whooping...

Now they both deal in wind, right? Marketeers, both of em. So they produce a bit of it on the site and debate begins. Folks are checkin in, wondering if this thing could make a difference to their bills and the planet...no-one knows much about the topic, so everyone's just watching...

Turbine Dude realises he's been making more noise than the contraption would, so he starts dancing. As you do when instinct is telling you to run away but folks are watching.
Company Man just grins and lets him jig about for a while. There's nothing better than letting a noisy little guy dump himself in it on the dance floor.

Company Man answers each question, politely and quite professional-like...admits to limitations in data collection and the infallability of statistics and presents his product as a step into the future that he and his clients believe will make a small but accountable difference. He's approachable, respectful, considerate and generally comes across quite well.

Turbine Dude continues with a bit more repetition which can be likened to the whine of a washing machine and his tic returns. Folks are tuning in. And out. Sometimes its just plain hard to hear through all the static. And lightning bolts. Which, by the way, are silent, but that prolly wasn't covered in the physics class.

Anyway, Company Man forwards a link to the thread to his company head office as part of his weekly report, who of course send it on to the company solicitor, who looks after such matters. Solicitor rubs his hands together. As they do. It appears that Turbine Dude associated himself with a concentrated and targeted campaign to diminish his competition and the product and identified himself with contact details in the promotion of his own products. Solicitor goes to work.

So as it was, I got that windy chocolate teapot coloured thing that you can see up there, for no other reason than to remind myself that when it comes to big business we have to remember there's a time we can stick our necks out and and a time to pull our heads in. Marketing is all in the timing. Cos the big proprietary blades might, if they so decide, just chop us up... in that silent, rooftop, millisecond way that big business operates.

So you see mate?...I figure that funny looking thing up there has paid for itself a thousand times over and saved me a Fortune!!!!

[Martin]

Out of this morning's Grauniad dropped a B&Q leaflet, which claims amongst other things-
"it is designed for use with MOST households"
"it is unlikely you will require planning consent" - you try that one on our local planners then!
"you don't need to live on a windy hillside. Even in town, fitting a wind turbine to your home can cut your electricity bill by up to 30%"
We have established that it IS a washing machine motor with a set of proprietary blades!
It is "use it or lose it"
Add to that, all the grant monies have all gone!
So you pays yer money, and yer takes yer choice!

ps, I have no problems with Nathan whatsoever - he comes across as a gentleman!

[red]

fantastic Boots! well said

[The Chili Monster]

Hear, hear! Boots!

[CG]

There's an article on roof top turbines in this month's Renewable Energy World at jxj.com. Windsave, Swift, and some overseas turbines are covered.

[welshphil]

Dear Forum,

As a time served professional within wind and solar power, I feel I have to help Martin in this debate. I would love nothing more than to see everybody using small scale renewable energy such as small wind turbines. Unfortunately, like many things in this world, if it sounds to good to be true, it usually is!

I can see that windsave are trying to commercialise small wind turbines and move them away from a 'cottage industry', but they are doing it very very wrong!

When I first looked at windsave a good while ago, I was very excited and I had an open mind. But I can confirm that it is all marketing hype with no engineering integrity behind it. Windsave is just another company like 'windtree', 'US Turbine' etc. They all had the exact same concept and approach, but needless to say they are not around anymore. The concept behind windsave is not new (as they would have you believe), many other similar initiatives have occurred in more environmentally advanced countries than the UKover the past 10-15 years. They all suffered the same fate......

The Windsave system doesn't work, couldn't work and will never work. Before we go any further and talk about the detailed areas of the windsave system, the fundamental stumbling block is that there is VERY VERY LITTLE KINETIC ENERGY TO BE CONVERTED FROM THE LIGHT TURBULENT WINDS AT ROOF-TOP LEVEL.

No matter how good the turbine and system, you can't convert energy that is not there is the first place.
Who here would buy a solar panel and then mount it in the shade under a tree? (not many I hope!) Mounting a Windsave on your roof is the samething!

It is interesting that the windsave guy said: "so you have data which shows the turbulence on 500 homes and its effect on pay back? If you do Windsave will happily pay for all your research we have been trying to source externally verified data for 3 years"
So windsave don't have this data already, yet they are rolling out a national marketing campaign? How can they possibly publish payback periods with any statistical significance?

Can windsave provide 10 case studies of successful installations out of the 'thousands' they have in the field? They couldn't a few weeks ago when I last checked. I had to make my own investigations. Here I discovered that one particular installation generated just 3KwH in 3 months - A grand saving of around 30 pence.

The very name 'windsave' is a simple yet clever marketing ploy tugging everyone's desire to save money and be environmentally friendly. A salesmens dream!

Then we can move onto the more detailed problems:

1) Vibration - Is an issue but I think that this can be got around with good mechanical design of the mount which I assume Windsave have done.

2) All turbine blades make noise - but some are quieter than others. The claim that the Windsave turbine is 'silent' is false - I have heard it. Whilst it is not the loudest turbine on the market, it is certainly not the quietest either. The only defence is that it will sit there like a lemon and not move - so how can it make any noise?

3) Inverter - This WAS probably one of the unique selling points for windsave- but is not anymore. I have on my desk in front of me a batteryless Grid-tie inverter. Its not a windyboy (as I believe Martin was referring to), but is made by one of the most successful RE inverter manufacturers in the world. It will be retailing for around 250quid! It is also interesting to note that up until recently, the Windsave grid-tie was little more than a glorified commercial UPS.

4) Turbine - Well what can I say. I could list a large number of alternative turbines that would do a better job than the windsave even in a roof-top application. It is a step backwards in turbine design. It will probably last forever, but only because it is going to sit there like a lemon and do nothing.

5) Cost - Windsave is relatively cheap, but then it doesn't have a stand alone tower. There will soon be cheaper more functional units available. I know a British manufacturer who will be able to suppling a similarly sized turbine, grid-tie and free standing tower for substantially less than windsave.

When David Gordon's daughter got into bed with Mark Insulation for installations and B&Q for retail (read into that what you will), it has hastened the downfall of the company. If we forget the product and just look at the business with due diligence, we see that it is not financially viable. The general predictions are that B&Q will drop windsave by around Jan/Feb 2007, the company will go through some death moves (maybe floatation or a complete sellout), and will disappear by this time next year along with the self appointed 'micropower council' run by windsave!

If you want to be green, take a look at the wealth of information on this site and others. If you want to save money, change your light bulbs, fit draught exluders etc and put 1498 in a savings account.

I would advise Martin not to waste any more time posting on this subject (as I have done writing this post). Market forces will do their thing, history will repeat itself, and windsave will not be around for long.

Cheers,
Phil