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Green Aura wrote:

The Riff-Raff Element wrote:They generally have no interest in listening to actual experts

And therein lies the problem - which expert do you listen to? An "expert" regularly gets wheeled out for any argument and they can't possibly all be right. The general public don't have the scientific training or critical analysis skills to decide who is more believable.

Much scientific research is limited by time/politics/financial constraints or just plain who's paying for it.

My daughter had all her vaccines, despite developing asthma within days of her very first injection. Related? Who's to know - the medical and pharmaceutical industries will never tell us.

I'm not sure I would make the same decision again.

as i said before:

Post hoc ergo propter hoc

meaning: after this therefor because of this

when people automatically make a connection between A and B, believing that A was the cause of B purly because B happened after A, when infact thay are unrelated.

the fact that your daughter developed asthma after her vaccine is mearly a coincedance.
asthma is a genetic illness, you cannot contract it from a vaccine.
it would have developed sooner or later, wither she had the vaccine or not.

in relation to what 'expert' should we, the gereral public, be listening too, i urge you all to read the book 'bad science' by doctor ben goldacre. in the book he clearly explains how to spot psudoscience and quacks so you can learn to fillter out all the drivvel from the real science.

SusieGee wrote:Demi, I think we're all now very aware of your views on this emotive subject. However, your dogmatic approach may be rather off putting to members wishing to air their own views in a more general way on the subject. May I politely suggest that as you are not, as far as I am aware, medically qualified or an 'expert' in this field that you respect that others may have differing views to your own that no amount of re-iteration will change. We all like to let off steam on pet subjects from time to time and have a little rant now and again but one thing we pride ourselves on at Ish is that we encourage everyone to play nicely and respect each others point of view. Thanks.

no i am not medically qualified, but i do have a Bsc in biology and zoology and have studied virology so im guessing i have a more indepth knowlage of the subject than some others may have.

but anyway, im giving up on this as its the same as trying to speak rationally to religious people who are never going to listen.

everyone is entitled to their own view, even if its the wrong one.

The Riff-Raff Element wrote:I wouldn't vaccinate my girls against chickenpox, even had they not had it, because I don't believe it to be useful.

Well, that's up to you, but if they should get chickenpox, I would ask you to do everyone else a favour and warn any adults who may come even slightly into contact with them - the vaccine wasn't available when we were kids, and adult chickenpox is absolutely horrible. Like I say, a good friend of mine nearly died, and while I wasn't nearly as bad, it was still the most ill I have ever been in my life. Absolutely bloody awful. At the time, I would have cheerfully throttled any one who tried to tell me that there was no need for them to vaccinate their kids because "chickenpox isn't that serious".

Also, I haven't had mumps either, so I would very much appreciate it if any parents with kids who aren't vaccinated against that would do me the favour of keeping your adorable little plague vectors as far away from me as humanly possible.

demi wrote:

but anyway, im giving up on this as its the same as trying to speak rationally to religious people who are never going to listen.

everyone is entitled to their own view, even if its the wrong one.

said the preacher.

I'm with you on this one Dunc. I came into contact with someone with German measles/rubella whilst I was expecting my son. The parents of the child didn't have a clue what disabilities rubella can cause - their children hadn't had the MMR vaccine. Luckily I had been vaccinated when I was a teenager and my blood tests showed I still had immunity from the disease. But I had a worrying couple of weeks whilst waiting for blood test results.

I'm old enough to remember children in at my school with poor eyesight or deafness as a result of measles or rubella and children with a leg in calipers or with weak lungs from polio. That was only the late 60s/70s.

Thank goodness for medical progress! But that is not to say that I wasn't more than a little anxious when my babies had their jabs...

gregorach wrote:

The Riff-Raff Element wrote:I wouldn't vaccinate my girls against chickenpox, even had they not had it, because I don't believe it to be useful.

Well, that's up to you, but if they should get chickenpox, I would ask you to do everyone else a favour and warn any adults who may come even slightly into contact with them - the vaccine wasn't available when we were kids, and adult chickenpox is absolutely horrible. Like I say, a good friend of mine nearly died, and while I wasn't nearly as bad, it was still the most ill I have ever been in my life. Absolutely bloody awful. At the time, I would have cheerfully throttled any one who tried to tell me that there was no need for them to vaccinate their kids because "chickenpox isn't that serious".

Also, I haven't had mumps either, so I would very much appreciate it if any parents with kids who aren't vaccinated against that would do me the favour of keeping your adorable little plague vectors as far away from me as humanly possible.

I take your point. Mind you, it is academic as they've all had the illness, and in any case the vaccine isn't - as far as I am aware - offered in France anyway. Is BCG still offered in the UK? Here it's been downgraded to "optional" here despite a rise in resistant TB strains, which does strike me as being perhaps a little conterproductive.

The BCG is no longer offered in the UK now.

my daughter got it when she was born in 2007 but that was only because her father is macedonian and macedonia was on the risk list.
my son was born in 2011 and he didnt get it, even though i asked, as macedonia has since been taken off the risk list.

they only give it if you have a connection with certain contrys that are on the list. i imagine contrys like thailand and india.

when we get back to macedonia im going to ask for them to give my son the BCG as well as hepatitus B , both of which my daughter was given when she was a baby. i dont like the idea of my daughter being protected against somthing which my son isnt.

I think that it would make more sense to make smoking illegal than to force everyone to give their kids mandatory vaccinations. The benefit to society would be far greater

SusieGee wrote:

but anyway, im giving up on this as its the same as trying to speak rationally to religious people who are never going to listen.

I think that's a very wise decision. When is it you're off to Macedonia again?

are you wanting rid of me?
they have the internet in macedonia too you know

we leave on the 7th of febuary, a week today!!!! cant wait!
although there is 1 meter of snow forcasted between now and sunday so i hope it doesnt interfear with our flight landing or block the road home
hopefully we will make it home safely.

Marc wrote:I think that it would make more sense to make smoking illegal than to force everyone to give their kids mandatory vaccinations. The benefit to society would be far greater

i agree with making smoking illegal, or more specifically, making tobacco illegal.
but they're never gonna do that, the government make too much money on tax from it. same goes for alcohol.

Given the air pollution,and the detrimental effects it has on my children,why dont they make air travel illegal ?
In fact the internal combustion engine better go on the list as well.

Someone was trying to tell me a little while ago that the duty revenue from tabacco no longer meets the cost of tresting smoking related illnesses, which is why the various governements in Europe, US, & Australia have suddenly got such a hard on for the wicked weed. I confess my own researches (OK - I looked on Google, which is hardly reliable) have thrown up contradictory answers depending - it seems - on which vested interest is writing the article, but I would quite like to know whether this is true

Air travel is a devil for pollution. I notice that the pollution coming from shipping is being spun to the benefit of air transport, though comparison on the basis of kg CO2 per tonne cargo moved is being carefully avoided

Thing is Jon,once you also start looking at it in this cost to the state\ individual freedom basis it becomes even more complicated than it is when you're just chewing over the rights of the individual\ responsibility to the herd thing.

just wanted to post this so anyone whos concerned about vaccines can have a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfheO9H8 ... creen&NR=1

New Study: Vaccinated Children Have More Than Twice the Diseases and Disorders Than Unvaccinated Children

http://journal.livingfood.us/2011/10/09 ... -children/

Damned if you do - damned if you don't

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