Selfsufficientish.com

I have written only one article in my entire life - "Industrial Society destroys Mind and Environment". I have spent many years trying to understand the issues. Whenever I make an addition to my article I post it in the Forums where I have posted my article.

When people fall sick they rush to the Doctor to save themselves.

When people fall sick they rush to the Hospital to save themselves.

The earth is sick.....ecosystems are dying......Animals, trees, Air, water and Land are dying.....Rivers, Oceans and Forests are dying.

Should we not try to save environment?????????

We are alive because of Nature......We owe our very existence to Nature.

Should we not try to save Nature???????


sushil_yadav
Delhi, India

sushil_yadav wrote:I have written only one article in my entire life - "Industrial Society destroys Mind and Environment".

Yes, Sushil ... I know.

But you are expounding it as a series of positive and, I have to say, somewhat aggressive statements. These are conclusions to which you have come. They are your opinions. Yet you express them strongly as unarguable fact. This has one predictable outcome - it annoys people.

I cannot argue with your plea to save the environment - it is in need of being saved. But the way to put your case is not to hammer home your points and descend into the realms of the esoteric. If you are genuinely concerned with the future of the world, then I suggest that you re-examine your demanding language. It's full of "musts" and "stops", "poison" and "destruction". You need to convince people, not threaten or frighten them.

Let me ask you a question ... do you believe that the world can be saved? If you do not, then there is no point other than crying into the wind in your article. If you do, then you are surely aiming to attract people to your case - and, patently, this is not happening. This does not, of course, mean that you are wrong or that people do not care - but it may mean that your tone is seen as overly strident and confrontational.

Your response to my criticisms on this forum is the first evidence I have seen that you are not merely another angry person who knows beyond question what's right for the world. OK - if this is so I may have been hasty in my attack. I hope I was hasty.

But please calm down your delivery.

Mike

So you're not Boboff,and I can't claim my £5........sod it.

MKG wrote:

sushil_yadav wrote:I have written only one article in my entire life - "Industrial Society destroys Mind and Environment".

Yes, Sushil ... I know.

But you are expounding it as a series of positive and, I have to say, somewhat aggressive statements. These are conclusions to which you have come. They are your opinions. Yet you express them strongly as unarguable fact. This has one predictable outcome - it annoys people.

I cannot argue with your plea to save the environment - it is in need of being saved. But the way to put your case is not to hammer home your points and descend into the realms of the esoteric. If you are genuinely concerned with the future of the world, then I suggest that you re-examine your demanding language. It's full of "musts" and "stops", "poison" and "destruction". You need to convince people, not threaten or frighten them.

Let me ask you a question ... do you believe that the world can be saved? If you do not, then there is no point other than crying into the wind in your article. If you do, then you are surely aiming to attract people to your case - and, patently, this is not happening. This does not, of course, mean that you are wrong or that people do not care - but it may mean that your tone is seen as overly strident and confrontational.

Your response to my criticisms on this forum is the first evidence I have seen that you are not merely another angry person who knows beyond question what's right for the world. OK - if this is so I may have been hasty in my attack. I hope I was hasty.

But please calm down your delivery.

Mike

I could not agree more Mike. Thanks for saying what everyone is thinking

This is an interesting subject and one which is debated on countless forums. I've pondered long and hard on this subject and my opinion is that we aren't overpopulated yet, there is enough to go around IF certain sections of society stop being greedy. One example being, if we all drove cars that did at least 50 mpg, think how much longer the oil would last. Cars are such a status symbol, which I really don't understand, why does a footballer/celebrity/MP/rich bugger/etc feel the need to buy some gas guzzling monster to drive around in? It's only there to take you from A to B and my little car does exactly the same job and uses less petrol/diesel. I've heard the argument countless times 'I need to get to an important appointment and I'm a busy man, so I need a high powered vehicle', if it's so important that you attend that particular meeting, then I'm sure they'll wait for you and, if were going to be picky about it, isn't that what video conferencing was invented for - to stop the need for excess business travel? Use Skype, it's free and means you don't get stuck in a traffic jam and end up late anyway.

In the same vein, why do some people need to have houses that are far larger than they actually need? It must cost a fortune during winter to heat the place, which again means using up more valuable resources than is actually necessary. So many people have second homes too, why? This only results in having to build more houses. My friend lives in Cumbria and her nearest neighbours are both second homes and one of them hasn't even been used for almost 3 years. This not only stops your ordinary local peasant from buying local property, but can ruin the local economy. There is no point in having local shops/pubs/schools/surgery/etc, if the place is a ghost town out of season, so the few locals that remain then have to drive (sometimes a considerable distance) to do stuff that could have been done on their local high street.

I could go on and on about this subject but, as I don't want it to turn into a full blown rant, I'll stop now. I'm sure you all know what I mean. Once we can get out of the mindset of having something bigger/better/newer than someone else just because we can, I think a lot of problems will start sorting themselves out. Why do I need a 50" plasma tv, when my 20 year old one shows the same programs? I will admit, it would be nice to have one but my welfare isn't going to suffer if I don't. We keep being told we live in a classless society? (yeah, right ) I'll only believe that when we stop with this urge to buy 'top of the range' luxury goods, when we don't need to.

I am really going to stop now or I'll be here ranting all day

Blessed are the poor for they are myriad and cannot afford top of the range cars.
Blessed are the rich for they are but few and only have three or four top of the range cars each.
Blessed are those like me who would sooner have a donkey

And the meek shall inherit the World....


Just so long as that's OK with the rest of you.

Yeh but he won't because he's not meek! Needs to sort his own backyard out first before he comes here. India together with China are allowing overpopulation, polution. he needs to wake up an smell the coffee. The West has got it together.

One question Bill - How are China allowing overpopulation? They've had a one-child policy in place for the past 30 years!

Now they're allowing 2 children if you're rural, or if you and your partner are single children. The only reason for that is that they have a deficit of 30 million women...

India...now that's a different matter. But to be fair, the UK's not helping is it? Have lots of children, get houses?!

bill1953 wrote:Yeh but he won't because he's not meek! Needs to sort his own backyard out first before he comes here. India together with China are allowing overpopulation, polution. he needs to wake up an smell the coffee. The West has got it together.

There is only one cause of environmental destruction......Industrialization.

Overpopulation and Overconsumerism are only consequences/ by-products of Industrialization.

Overconsumerism is quite obviously a consequence of Industrialization..... Industrial consumer goods and services would not exist without Industrial Activity.

Overpopulation is also a by-product of Industrialization. The entire world was overbreeding until the middle years of 20th century.....even Western Countries had 5 - 12 children per family[and even more].....and yet population of the world remained low before industrialization because of high death rate, lower life span and shortage of food and water. It was only 1 billion in 1800 AD. India and China have large populations today because they started with larger populations thousands of years ago, since ancient civilizations thrived in these regions. What was the population of Europe/ America/ West 2000 years ago????......Was it comparable to eastern population of India and China????

Industrialization is the cause of overpopulation and overconsumerism.

Moreover, Environment has been destroyed by Industrialization/ Consumerism…….Not by Population/ Overpopulation.

Total World Population has not increased ……It has decreased……In fact total world population has been decimated.

When we talk of population we should take into account population of all animal species, not just human population.

Industrial Society has decimated millions of Animal Species……Increase in human population has coincided with decrease/ decimation of millions of animal species. The total burden of population on this planet has not increased…..It has decreased.

Industrial Society has decimated millions of other species.....but there was a time when the combined population of other animal species was much greater than present human population.....and we don't even need to include smaller animals in this count.....the combined population of big animals alone whose size and weight was equivalent to or greater than man was much greater than current human population of 7 billion.

The amount of food this animal population was eating was much greater than the food consumed by humans today.......Yet millions of animal species did not destroy environment and lived sustainably on earth for millions of years......because they destroyed environment only for food and not for thousands of consumer goods and services.

If animals had started a consumerist "Industrial Society" millions of years ago they would have destroyed all ecosystems millions of years ago.

The entire world has been trying to control human population for 50 years and these efforts should / will continue in future.....so where is the problem with population?????

What is the cause of human overpopulation??????......It is Industrialization......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion today ........In the absence of Industrialization world population would only be a small fraction of 7 billion today.

It is not population that destroys environment......It is lifestyle.......The combined population of millions of animal species was much greater than present human population.......and yet they did not destroy environment for millions of years because they destroyed environment only for Food.......not for Thousands of Consumer Goods.

The cause of Environmental Destruction is Industrialization / Consumerism.........Not population / overpopulation.

A Hunter_Gatherer Society of 7 billion would not destroy environment [And a Hunter_Gatherer Society would never reach a population of 7 billion]

An Agrarian Society of 7 billion would cause much lesser environmental destruction than an Industrial Society of 7 billion [And an Agrarian Society would never reach a population of 7 billion]

Industrialization is the cause of Human Overpopulation and Overconsumerism

It is so ridiculous of Industrial Society to complain about overpopulation when it itself is the cause of overpopulation......It is so ridiculous of Industrial Society to make attempts to control population while promoting Consumerism, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP exponentially.

Height of Insanity!

Industrial Activity for production of Consumer Goods must stop immediately.......Human work must be limited to Food, Clothing and Shelter.

sushil_yadav
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

wigan pixie wrote:...One example being, if we all drove cars that did at least 50 mpg, think how much longer the oil would last. ...This not only stops your ordinary local peasant from buying local property, but can ruin the local economy. There is no point in having local shops/pubs/schools/surgery/etc, if the place is a ghost town out of season, so the few locals that remain then have to drive (sometimes a considerable distance) to do stuff that could have been done on their local high street.

You raise some great points, wigan pixie. But seriously, if we ALL drove 50mpg car (or any kind of car) the world would be in a load of trouble. Car ownership is really the main (or one of the main) reasons for your second point, more so than second-home ownership, in my opinion. For example, I don't own a car. It's not a matter of principle (unless that principle is not wasting money on a car when I can get by perfectly well without one) but a simple matter of convenience. I live in the city, the public transport is dirt cheap (£10 for a one-month travelcard for all surface transport), and I have plenty of shops on my doorstep. There is a big supermarket not too far away, with nice parking, easy access and everything else you'd expect, but I very rarely go there, not because I'm an eco-warrior and I'm boycotting them, but simply because it's less of a pain in the behind to shop locally. There are about 4 butchers' shops within 10 minutes' walk, a couple of greengrocers, a fishmonger, a couple of 'minimart' type places, and so on.

I imagine it's too late for the UK now that the circle of 'everyone has a car, no need for local shops, local shops disappear, everyone needs a car' has reached completion. I've been out of the country since the late '90s, but the last time I was back in Bath, I noticed that all the local parades, excepting a few, had closed down, or had been reduced to a McColl's newsagent and perhaps a hair salon. Is this the trend for most of the UK now or is what I'm reading in the press an exaggeration?

'.but there was a time when the combined population of other animal species was much greater than present human population.....'

????? You obviously have a very poor and limited understanding of natural history among mant other things. Mice and rats alone far outstrip the human population.

If you look at this link you wil see most of the humans are in your neck of the woods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population

bill1953 wrote:Mice and rats alone far outstrip the human population.

Also, isn't one in three living creatures a beetle?

bill1953 wrote:'.but there was a time when the combined population of other animal species was much greater than present human population.....'

????? You obviously have a very poor and limited understanding of natural history among mant other things. Mice and rats alone far outstrip the human population.

You don't even know what you are writing.

So mice and rats alone far outstrip the present human population......Right........And before industrialization when humans had not decimated millions of species the combined population of millions of animal species was even greater ......the ratio of non-human population vs human population was even higher.........This is what I had written in my previous post.

bill1953 wrote: If you look at this link you wil see most of the humans are in your neck of the woods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population

Blaming population for global/ environmental crisis is like blaming Taliban and Al Qaeda for Terrorism

Who created Taliban and Al Qaeda???????......It was America......and it was America that sustained them by giving Money and weapons to Taliban and Al Qaeda for years and years......and today America is a Saint and Taliban & Al Qaeda are terrorist organixations.


Overpopulation is a by-product of Industrialization. The entire world was overbreeding until the middle years of 20th century.....even Western Countries had 5 - 12 children per family[and even more].....and yet population of the world remained low before industrialization because of high death rate, lower life span and shortage of food and water. It was only 1 billion in 1800 AD. India and China have large populations today because they started with larger populations thousands of years ago, since ancient civilizations thrived in these regions. What was the population of Europe/ America/ West 2000 years ago????......Was it comparable to eastern population of India and China????

The entire world has been trying to control human population for 50 years and these efforts should / will continue in future.....so where is the problem with population?????

What is the cause of human overpopulation??????......It is Industrialization......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion today ........In the absence of Industrialization world population would only be a small fraction of 7 billion today.

It is not population that destroys environment......It is lifestyle.......The combined population of millions of animal species was much greater than present human population.......and yet they did not destroy environment for millions of years because they destroyed environment only for Food.......not for Thousands of Consumer Goods.

The cause of Environmental Destruction is Industrialization / Consumerism.........Not population / overpopulation.

A Hunter_Gatherer Society of 7 billion would not destroy environment [And a Hunter_Gatherer Society would never reach a population of 7 billion]

An Agrarian Society of 7 billion would cause much lesser environmental destruction than an Industrial Society of 7 billion [And an Agrarian Society would never reach a population of 7 billion]

Industrialization is the cause of Human Overpopulation and Overconsumerism

It is so ridiculous of Industrial Society to complain about overpopulation when it itself is the cause of overpopulation......It is so ridiculous of Industrial Society to make attempts to control population while promoting Consumerism, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP exponentially.

Height of Insanity!

Industrial Activity for production of Consumer Goods must stop immediately.......Human work must be limited to Food, Clothing and Shelter.

sushil_yadav
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment