Bread

[den_the_cat]

For optimum gas production in a yeasty dough, the dough normally needs to be made up of around 5% sugar and 2% yeast. Any more than 5% sugar and osmotic pressure actually decreases gas production.

wow I don't use anywhere near that - I use about a pound of flour (give or take) with a teaspoon measure of sugar, one of milk powder (if in a breadmaker) and about a third of sugar plus 2/3 a packet of yeast. So I guess the milk powder is sweetened but even two teaspoons of sugar to a lb of flour is a lot less than 5% and my bread sometimes turns out distressingly fluffy (fluffy is good but Mothers Pride fluffy is not).

I vary my dried yeasts depending on whats cheap and that doesn't seem to make any difference, to be honest.

I do wonder if its something silly like atmospheric pressure sometimes, because I make the stuff almost on autopilot so I don't think I'm doing much different each time - mayby you need more yeast up there in the heights of scotland just like cakes are harder to make in a ski resort?

[Stonehead]

For optimum gas production in a yeasty dough, the dough normally needs to be made up of around 5% sugar and 2% yeast. Any more than 5% sugar and osmotic pressure actually decreases gas production.

wow I don't use anywhere near that - I use about a pound of flour (give or take) with a teaspoon measure of sugar, one of milk powder (if in a breadmaker) and about a third of sugar plus 2/3 a packet of yeast. So I guess the milk powder is sweetened but even two teaspoons of sugar to a lb of flour is a lot less than 5% and my bread sometimes turns out distressingly fluffy (fluffy is good but Mothers Pride fluffy is not).

I vary my dried yeasts depending on whats cheap and that doesn't seem to make any difference, to be honest.

I do wonder if its something silly like atmospheric pressure sometimes, because I make the stuff almost on autopilot so I don't think I'm doing much different each time - mayby you need more yeast up there in the heights of scotland just like cakes are harder to make in a ski resort?

I'm not saying use those proportions! Those are the proportions for optimum gas production in a dough and you'd probably only use them for making a super light modern commercial bread or perhaps a sponge.

Depending on the style of bread you're making, the amount of fibre the dough contains, the presence of milk solids and salt, and a number of other factors, you'd use different proportions of yeast and sugar but would not exceed the 5% and 2% figures as you will start to impede the fermentation process.

[Shirley]

That sounds interesting... how does one 'start' a jar of home-made leaven?

There are lots of leaven recipes on the web (I just googled and found scores), but the closest to the one I know is on the Woman's Hour archive.

In The Handmade Loaf, Dan Lepard refers to leavens that are at least 100 years old! Mine's only a youngester.

The way leavens work is that the bacteriain yoghurt and rye flourstart breaking down the flour and lower the pH to a level where the yeast in the raisins can kick in. After that, it's just maintenance - as you take leaven out, add flour and water.

(I keep mine at room temperature BTW.)

Thanks Stoney

[Stonehead]

Incidentally, going back to my bread recipe, the reason for making a batter first is that you want to speed up the fermentive adaptation of the yeast to its new environment.

A high liquid content and the initial absence of salt and sugar enormously speed up this adaptation. However, a high liquid content weakens the gluten structure, while feeding the yeast with sugar at the right point in the process produces much more gas than feeding it flour alone .

So, after letting the yeast adapt and get to work for 15-20 minutes, you then add the remaining flour, sugar and salt as the yeast is now robust enough to keep going. At the same time, using the extra flour to mop up the liquid allows the gluten structure to strengthen.

There is science to the recipe!

[Muddypause]

Is the effect exactly the same?

Do your own comparison - it worked for me, but what do I know?

When I first got the bread machine (RIP) I thought the bread was pretty sweet, then discovered that with some types of dried yeast, you don't add the sugar. That resolved the sweetness issue.

[wulf]

Cooking is all about applied science. One important thing about scientific method is controlled conditions and that means consistent ingredients - for example, what works with one type of flour may not go so well with another brand because they have been diffferently milled or produced using a different type of grain.

Kitchen science doesn't allow perfect control as we rely on relatively anonymous ingredients rather than having been able to follow them all the way through the stages of production. However, assuming you tend to use the same ingredients you can get a fair degree of refinement by gradually adjusting one element at a time and noting the results.

I did this a lot when I first got my breadmachine and have combined together elements from several recipes to get very reliable loaves - for example, it wasn't long before I discovered that adding milk powder gave no particular benefit in making the loaves come out more to my taste and so I was able to drop that requirement from my list.

Wulf

[ina]

Ah, but then - I work with scientists on a daily basis, and I've long known that when science comes in one door, common sense goes out the other...

Anyway, I never use any sugar for my bread, and yes, it does turn out a bit on the heavy side, but that's the way I like it, having been brought up on wholemeal rye bread and the likes. I use sour dough, too, and I leave the dough for much longer (just now I've got one on the go that's had 36 hours just with the sourdough and rye flour, I then added yeast, salt and wheatflour and it's got another 12 hours at least, before I knock it back and stick it in the tin). I let it rise slowly, being a bit short of "warm" places to leave it in - it works just as well. Sometimes I make a dough (just yeast) and leave it in the fridge overnight for fresh rolls in the morning.

Btw, it's nice to use potato water for the dough - the water you've boiled your potatoes in. Just make sure that if you've added salt to the tatties, cut back on it for the dough. It adds a bit of flavour and, I think, the starch in it makes the bread more springy, if that's the right word...