Selfsufficientish.com

I HAVE kept rabbits,but they were Angora,and potentially quite lucrative.
We have plenty of wild rabbit here,so I don't bother with domestic meat animals,my old dad kept NZ Whites,check out the Smallholder mags for availability.
My kids dont have a prob with the animals being killed,as they know from the start they aren't pets.Only stock animals are ever named(if at all) and never the offspring.
I dont blame anyone who's squaemish re killing,and I understand it,I just find it a bit sad(in the true sense of the word),and d'you know RRE,I'm not sure I was joking about the curriculum thing,though maybe it would be better if they avoided school full stop.
And really,dont all animals kill others(even if only by accidently treading on them)?Unless you're a Janist monk(and even they get someone else to do the sweeping) then you're gona kill something.
Or are we superior to other animals?..Isn't that the outlook that's got us in all this s--t?
No criticism of anyone intended,I may well be losing the plot.

Zech wrote:I was reading a magazine recently (Practical Smallholder or somesuch) which encouraged people to keep rabbits for meat, but in two separate articles authors recommended encouraging children to keep them as pets, saying that children would feel proud of their contribution to the household economy. Um, I can think of other likely reactions than pride when parents kill and eat their children's pets

It really depends on your upbringing. My brothers used to skin rabbits when I was younger while us girls plucked chickens and pheasants. We fed and looked after the chucks and rabbits beforehand and didn't have a problem helping to prepare them for the table. Similarly, most of my neighbours keep both chickens and rabbits and none of their children or offspring have any problems caring for them before eating them.

oldjerry wrote:Is it this inability to kill animals that most people are still prepared to eat(and so by definition pay someone else to do the deed for them) that illustrates how remote people have become from a sustainable way of life?

You probably have a point there. I was put off meat when I made the connection between what had been running around full of life was the same thing my mother was stuffing breadcrumbs etc up the arse of 20 minutes later.

I was only 9 at the time and denied the connection for years, though I eventually faced it.

Butchering for the masses is not going away but I would seriously doubt that many people would be able to cope if prepared meat suddenly disappeared.

Susie wrote:But the whole house of cards is dependent on someone else killing the animals for me.

Very few people can do everything. I have to admit, I'm pretty squeamish about slaughtering and butchery myself - I'm pretty sure I could do it if push came to shove, but I'd much rather that it didn't. On the flip side, I'm sure there's butchers out there who wouldn't want to get involved with composting toilets...

oldjerry wrote: And really,dont all animals kill others(even if only by accidently treading on them)?Unless you're a Janist monk(and even they get someone else to do the sweeping) then you're gona kill something.
Or are we superior to other animals?..Isn't that the outlook that's got us in all this s--t?
No criticism of anyone intended,I may well be losing the plot.

I don't have a principled objection to killing animals for meat (which is why I'm happy to eat it), and I totally take on board the point that other animals do it too - and they don't tend to have qualms about how much their dinner suffers. I just doubt that I, personally, am capable of taking a living animal and turning it into a dead one. If other people can do this for me, that's great, and I will try to buy my meat from those who do it as humanely as possible (in this respect, I hope we can try to be superior to other animals).

contadina wrote:

Zech wrote:I was reading a magazine recently (Practical Smallholder or somesuch) which encouraged people to keep rabbits for meat, but in two separate articles authors recommended encouraging children to keep them as pets, saying that children would feel proud of their contribution to the household economy. Um, I can think of other likely reactions than pride when parents kill and eat their children's pets

It really depends on your upbringing. My brothers used to skin rabbits when I was younger while us girls plucked chickens and pheasants. We fed and looked after the chucks and rabbits beforehand and didn't have a problem helping to prepare them for the table. Similarly, most of my neighbours keep both chickens and rabbits and none of their children or offspring have any problems caring for them before eating them.

OK, I see that it's possible (and healthy) to bring up children to be comfortable with killing animals. What got me was the, "Encourage your children to treat them as pets." NOOOO! I may be a bit sentimental about this, but in my view pets are part of the family - encouraging this kind of emotional connection to farm animals is asking for trouble, in my opinion.

Zech wrote:and I totally take on board the point that other animals do it too - and they don't tend to have qualms about how much their dinner suffers.

The big difference is that humans can make a choice, an ability not yet evolved by (most) other animals.

gregorach wrote:On the flip side, I'm sure there's butchers out there who wouldn't want to get involved with composting toilets...

With respect, it's hardly a valid comparison.

Now I'm questioning my entire way of eating. Bugger, and I thought I'd got a workable solution. I think I'm going to go and eat some (vegan) dark chocolate and imagine OJ carefully brushing his angora rabbits, until the feeling passes.

(I do actually avoid killing spiders/ bugs as well ;-), although I've never had anything I couldn't co-exist with so it's never really been tested, as a philosophy!).

I do get the smallholder mag, and have never noticed Rabbit sales.

How much room do they need? Do they need to be outside? no, they would dig out... Daft question.

MIght have a go at this at some point?

As for the Vegan thing, I kill Chickens and eat them, have my pigs killed and eat them, Can't see rabbits being any worce, we have lots of wild rabbits on the field, but with the Air Rifle, and being a rubbish shot, and a even worce huntsman, no joy.!

gregorach wrote:Managing a herd for milking requires that you "dispose" of the vast majority of the surplus males born every year, and nobody runs nice retirement homes for them.

Quite so.
I don't know what happens to them now but they used to be shipped over to France when the were a few weeks old purely because British people wouldn't eat veal. (and still won't)
I don't enjoy killing anything but I can't honestly see any ethical difference between killing a chicken for food and squidging a caterpillar that's munching on my cabbages, or a slug devastating my lettuces.

Out of interest, would vegans buy slug damaged vegetables ?

Odsox wrote: I don't know what happens to them now but they used to be shipped over to France when the were a few weeks old purely because British people wouldn't eat veal. (and still won't)

They still might be, though I confess I've not heard of this being done. There was a period of time whan male calves born to dairy herds were shot the day they were born and burried on the farm. Now that all carcasses have to be removed from farms (at the farmer's expense) they are generally brought on a bit and end up being slaughtered to go into the processed food market - burgers and so on - since veal can quite legally be labelled as beef, though not vice versa. So the British are eating plenty of veal, but they just don't know it

My elder girls (11 & 9) regularly help out at poultry slaughter time as I need the extra hands to catch the birds. It doesn't seem to have affected them and they show no inclination whatsoever not to eat the result.

im with odsox on this on this i dont have a problem killing some thing to eat or to protect my food( mice bugs etc) i dont enjoy killing and have to go to a very stern place when it is time to dispatch one of my animals .
pets have names food stuffs do not i dont name my chickens and i dont name my veg

Odsox wrote:I don't enjoy killing anything but I can't honestly see any ethical difference between killing a chicken for food and squidging a caterpillar that's munching on my cabbages, or a slug devastating my lettuces.

It's not a fair comparison, Odsox. In the first case, you're the predator.

'Pests' don't have to be killed. They can be moved elsewhere. Or you can encourage wildlife that preys upon pests. Or you can have a few companion animals. Ducks adore slugs, fr'instance. Or you can deal with pests in a way which discourages them in the first place. A garlic wash and/or a copper deterrent.

Odsox wrote:Out of interest, would vegans buy slug damaged vegetables ?

Quite possibly, though they usually aren't on sale. Some of our home-grown stuff is slug damaged and we eat the good parts (of the veg. )

greenorelse wrote:

Odsox wrote:I don't enjoy killing anything but I can't honestly see any ethical difference between killing a chicken for food and squidging a caterpillar that's munching on my cabbages, or a slug devastating my lettuces.

It's not a fair comparison, Odsox. In the first case, you're the predator.

Of course it's a fair comparison.
A life is a life regardless whether it's a pretty fluffy bunny or an ugly slimy slug.