This is the place to discuss not just allotments but all general gardening problems and queries which don't fit into the specific categories below.
(formerly allotments and tips, hints and problems)
No I leave it to rot before I dig it in, although it's still obviously sawdust after a year or two! Yes it does rot down under the soil eventually, but what I was actually talking about was not to take loads of the sawdust on its own, a bit of it mixed with poo is fine. A bag of it soiled with urine is not good news, as it will take yonks to break down no matter how many times you turn it and add green stuff.
I did use it as mulch one year but you know my soil, it wasn't a great idea. Did disappear eventually though (probably blew away!).
P.S. It's OK to disagree with me, lots of people do.
P.P.S. Graham the weed seeds are in the horse poo, not the straw, though I guess with London horses that don't ever go out to graze then they wouldn't have any weeds in the poo unless there was some in their hay?
MMM, I was thinking about you and mulching a bit over the weekend. The guy that really turned me on to mulching was an Italien guy, a real paysanne. Before he came to England, he would walk all night over the mountain with a couple of pigs to sell at the market. He is in his 70's now, but you watch the efficiency of his digging or doing anything, it is amazing. His plot is always the best.
Anyway when he takes over an overgrown allotment, he slashes the weeds down, skims the top inch off, then buries it in 6" of woodchip and manure.
The following year any weeds that come up through the mulch are easily removed. More woodchip and/or manure is piled on top. Within a couple of years the woodchip will be well rotted down (here in England at least). In later years, just manure is usually used to mulch, unless the available chippings are very leafy and green, and except under fruit where some woodchip is fine. Each year he makes sure his plot is well mulched.
I'd known theoretically that mulching was good, but it always seemed like a lot of work, but watching him it showed a bit of effort importing the mulch saved so much time and effort, in eliminating weeds and giving a really humus rich, moisture retentive soil that plants just thrive.
It should be said that woodchip is easy to come by in London, because of all the tree pruners, who are usually glad to give it away.
I appreciate this may not be applicable in your situation, MMM, but what do other people do in countries with hot, dry summers?
So that's in effect a no-dig method? I never understand how anyone can make a seed drill and sow seeds in that - unless it is beautifully rotted, just like bought potting compost or leaf mould. Whenever I've had any bits of horse manure on the surface they dry out to rocks that can't be rewetted so are as much a nuisance to my seed drills and hoeing as the stones on or just under the soil surface.
I don't know what other people do, everyone has different soil and my problem isn't heat. It's like having a full bath in spring with the plug left ajar, the water just drains out from the plughole. It wouldn't matter if you put a tarp over to stop evaporation, cos it's all draining out down below.
I've tried reverse mulching - dig new flower beds down to bedrock removing all rocks and big stones, layer half rotted compost deeply over the bedrock, then put back soil layered with half rotted compost, hoping that would retain moisture better. It doesn't.
MMM have you read any permaculture books? You might get some ideas from there for your problem as they go into saving water a lot, especially on sloping ground, with swales, contour planting, etc.
No I haven't Graham but do they cover flower beds cos as I said before (here or on another thread, I'm a bit lost!) the veg patch isn't a problem at all, it's where I have perennial plantings that is the problem.
And I was thinking about what you said about what other people in hot and/or dry climates do, well as far as non edibles go they tend not to plant in the English style - apart from one neighbour of mine who loves plants as much as I do and moans about how dry it is too. French style seems to be a few shrubs dotted here and there and then plant a bank or bed up through hideously ugly thick green geotextile which just looks ridiculous. I'd rather just have lawn than that. They are not into herbaceous borders much at all.
Also I do have some perennial plants which are happy with dry soil but even though these self seed with abandon and I have lots of them, I really do want more in my 15 or so flower beds than just sedum, lavender, euphorbias, verbena bonariensis and wild violas. Bearded irises do fine too but look like shite for 10 months of the year!
Not sure that permaculture is that interested in flowers particularly, but there are perenial vegetables, so I guess the same principles apply. Also I think I mentioned before in the Touraine there is a tendancy to plant many perenials, other than the really drought tolerant ones, in the shade, the shade of buildings or (not too dense) trees.
Beth Chatto is the woman to read on growing perenials in a dry border.
Don't get as much time as I used to to post here, but a horse poo debate, who can resist! As I understand it poo is best composted except if it's for squash/hotbeds, then it's best fresh.
Also poo picked poo seems to be less critical to compost, but does add weeds to the beds if it's not. Stable poo with straw really ought to be composted because straw will leach nitrogen from the soil for a year before giving it back- once it starts giving it back it's a real benefit. It will have added phosphorus (or it might be potassium?? ) from the wee in the straw (not in the poo picked stuff) so the NPK balance is better...so Im told.
The problem with shavings is they take longer than straw to compost, but there's no reason with patience you can't get five star stuff.
i just put mine in a compost style pallet bin covered it up with carpet keep it moist prob stick a bit of garroty on it and leave it at least six months
Cloud wrote:I've just picked up three sacks of fresh horse manure and have been wondering what to do with it (I thought it was ready to use until I looked on google). The info I found googling seems to give different answers to how to prepare it. Eventually I tipped it all in to one of our compost bins and mixed it in with the what was there - now I'm wondering if I did the right thing and should have let it to rot by its self for a while.
That'll be fine, Cloud. Just leave it to do its own thing 'til the Spring.
I have found a contact for some horse manure but not seen it yet so don't know how fresh it is but if I just add it to my existing compost bin which is mostly grass cuttings and vegetable peel, will it then be ok to put on a bed that contains carrots (bearing in mind that carrots don't like horse manure).
Leave it for 6 months or so to rot down but turn it from time to time to speed up the process. Don't add it to your bed/s where you are going to grow carrots or parsnips but everything else will love it!
worth mentioning, when you do add it to the compost heap mix it up a bit at that stage, it will stop the grass clipping smelling and going slimey, speed the whole thing up
My poo experiences - for what they're worth:
In my first year of growing on the allotment, I was given 'pure' horse poo mixed with a very little sawdust in bags by someone who worked in a racehorse stables. She told me it could be dug in new when there was no straw to rot down and that's what I did - about two bags to 4 square metres, so not loads. Everything seemed quite happy with that.
The manure that comes from the rare breeds park (so various varieties, especially pig) breaks down ridiculously slowly and, and even when old and dug under the surface, forms the rock-like dry boulders mentioned elsewhere.
I've recently got a load of one-two year old, almost 'pure' horsepoo, dug trenches into beds and chucked in a few inches deep along the row. This was to help the beans with moisture retention and the squashes with food. Time will tell.
Best results seem to come from spreading pure poo on the beds and covering over winter - it breaks up nicely, the worms are very happy and it's nice and warm earlier in the spring
now horse poo features quite heavily in my life!! Have had horses since I can remember and lovely fertile gardens too!! I make big heaps in pallet containers< two wide> and usually have 3 on the go during the 6 months over winter when cherry and willow are in at night. Keep them covered, water if the straw gets dry and turn it about a bit if you can. I usually use some of the younger stuff to make trench for beans and squashes in spring and bung as much of the last yrs stuff everwhere else except where the root crops go. I also add seaweed to the heaps when weve had a storm and there is loads washed up on the shore.I only ever pick fresh seaweed from the rocks for eating.. and always cut only the last third leaving the roots to regrow.
I use the poo picking poo to put in the general compost heap to heat it up. Lots of horse owners are happy to share this bounty with others just ask, we often end up with too much of the good thing!
I plan to have 3 beds and rotate them. I have created one already and planted some Carrots in them along with some other stuff. I will create the other 2 beds this Autumn. If I add manure to them when will it be ok to plant Carrots in them? I will probably keep them in the same bed for next year but move them over to one of the other beds the year after next? Will that be ok?
In theory what they say you should do is manure it for your potatoes, then next year move onto either legumes (peas/beans) or lime it for the cabbage family, then do the other one and last plant carrots/onions/parsnips so it hasn't had manure for a few years and other crops have used it up a bit. Then after the carrots etc muck before the potatoes again.
The idea is the other crops have use dup some power out of the muck over those years before you grow carrots. I think if you don't the outcome tends to be forked carrots, hairy carrots or more foliage that carrot (depending on who you believe). Having said that I mucked everything when I got to the allotment, grew carrots and they were OK for me (but I'm not fussy about hairs or forks).
However I do move stuff around every year to stop the risk of soil bourne problems building up. I think carrots you can get away with easier than potatoes or cabbage sewing them 2 years on the trot, having said that I did do that years ago in a barrel. The first year the carrots were magnificent, the second they were rubbish and have never grown well in that barrel since despite putting in fresh soil.
Did disappear eventually though (probably blew away!). 
(thanks)
) from the wee in the straw (not in the poo picked stuff) so the NPK balance is better...so Im told.
