Payments for health stuff

[ocailleagh]

So do people who start smoking again have to give the money back? Or do they get paid for every time they quit? And what about those of us who have already given up? Do we get a reward too?
The ideas our government come up with are beyond pathetic, and verging on sheer idiocy!
And Dominic, I really don't think what you say is the case. Most people I know who have chosen not to vaccinate their children have done so out of concerns over the safety and effectiveness of said vaccinations. I'd even venture that the type of person you describe is probably the type to follow blindly whatever the government and medical authorities tell them.

[Ellendra]

one question. How can there be a measles epidemic if only 7 children in the school of 350 haven't had their vaccinations? How much help is the vaccine then??

Sounds like they were using a faulty vaccine. Either not stored properly, or else dilluted to noneffectiveness.

[marshlander]

This is from ITV good morning website;-

Measles - New figures show cases are at all time high after MMR scares.
New figures reveal cases at 20-year high in the wake of panic over MMR safety.

MORE than 400 people have been struck down with measles in England and Wales this year - the highest number since records began.
Last year just 77 got the potentially fatal illness.
The latest figures were released by the Health Protection Agency as it warned of a large scale outbreak.

Dr Chris says: : I've no hesitation in saying you must let her have the MMR vaccine. People just don't realise that measles kill 1 million children globally, and can cause deafness, pneumonia and encephalitis (inflammation of the brain that can cause convulsions, coma and death!). Because of the falling uptake of this vaccine, 3 months ago, a child died from measles - the first in 14 years. Last year there were 77 measles cases, and this year already there have been 449 cases, so measles is spreading - and your daughter needs protecting. I have just had my own granddaughter vaccinated with MMR - need I say any more? Just let me reassure you that the MMR dose not cause autism.

A spokeswoman for the Health Protection Agency (HPA) said: "People think measles is a trivial disease but it is not. Some people unfortunately died and some were debilitated in the past. Our message to parents is to get their children vaccinated to reduce the risk."

Research published in The Lancet in 1998 by Dr Andrew Wakefield led to a decline in MMR immunization rates from above 90% to 79% in January 2003.The fall was accelerated by the controversy over Tony Blair's refusal to say whether Leo had been vaccinated. Since 2003, rates had risen again to 83 per cent. Dr Wakefield is to be charged with serious professional misconduct by the General Medical Council. Charges are being prepared accusing him of "inadequately founded" research, obtaining "improper funding" and conducting "unnecessary and invasive investigations" on children.

[GingerKatieSparkles]

"The Truth About Vaccines" is an interesting read on this one. It is not without its own spin but presents a good selection of facts and figures to allow a more informed decision.

Basically, no vaccine is 100% effective, even initially, and vaccine protection wears off over time (natural immunity through catching and fighting off the disease is stronger and more long lasting). There have been outbreaks of measles among populations (eg schools) with over 99% vaccination rates, over 95% having received at least two doses of MMR and/or single measles vaccine. It is very unlikely that it is possible to eradicate measles through vaccination, and it is not the case that you get a vaccination and you will definitely then not catch the disease (or pass it on). One of the risks of a widespread childhood vaccination program is that as the vaccination immunity wears off, the disease is pushed into older age groups where the risk of complications is more severe, thus actually increasing problems caused by the disease (or increasing the dependency on the vaccination). The author says that we're currently in the glory days of MMR vaccination - people born in the 70s or earlier mostly have natural immunity, which they have passed on to their young infants [1], and childhood receipients of MMR are mostly still protected, although perhaps this is beginning to wane, hence the increased cases? Although frankly, I just can't get too scared about 400 in 60million+ odds of catching something that 30 years ago everyone was expected to get.

Rubella is a prime example of this - it's a disease that is *only* a problem if caught by a woman who is pregnant, so vaccinating everyone at age 1 and 4 (rather than vaccinating girls at 13 with the rubella-only vaccine as we used to do, having given them a chance to catch the disease and develop natural, lifelong immunity first) means it begins to wear off during your childbearing years. It's a plan that only works if you think you can completely and utterly eradicate rubella, and from what I've read the effectiveness of the vaccine isn't good enough even if you could persuade everyone - worldwide - to vaccinate sufficiently. (Total anecdote - my 19-year-old sister who had the MMR as a child was found to have no rubella immunity when tested during pregnancy recently; a friend's 8 month old was hospitalized because his whooping cough diagnosis was delayed as the GP thought he couldn't have it, he'd been vaccinated).

Tbh, it's the population effects like these that worry me more than the effect on my individual child - the chances of them, as healthy kids from a high social class living in good conditions, either being damaged or directly causing damage by a vaccine-preventable disease, or by a vaccine, are so small and impossible to predict that basically, it's like a tree falling on them in the woods - you'd always feel guilty for letting them in the woods (ie not vaccinating/vaccinating), but you couldn't sensibly guard against it. However I don't get to decide what happens to everyone (boo!). The scaremongering annoys me though.

Just noticed this is all a bit off topic - sorry - as for the payments thing, it's already the case that GP's funding is linked to vaccination rates, hence their sometimes strong-arm tactics, so I suppose it's not that different. Shame the government seems to think money is a better way to win an argument than reasoned, informed debate though :-(

[1] Immunity passed on in this way wears off in the first year or two, but while it is there means a vaccine induced immunity won't work, hence MMR at 13 months+; vaccine immunity passed on is less effective than natural immunity, meaning young infants are more at risk once vaccination is widespread.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

Paying people seems entirely wrong to me. Provide vaccines for free, subsidise anti-smoking treatements and offer fruit to school children - all fine by me and a good use of tax payers money. But PAY people? No.

The vaccine point has been laboured before, but I suppose it is an important one. The current fad for non-vaccination has its roots, I suspect, not in laziness, nor in any great wealth of well-informed people making thoughtful and educated descisions (there are some - on this board for example - but most people haven't got a clue what they are doing; its just a fashionable thing to do) but mostly in the inability of humans to easily deal with abstract threat.

At the moment, since the vast majority of children are vaccinated the chance of an outbreak getting a proper seat and becoming an epidemic is small. Hence unvaccinated children are unlikely to be in much danger of catching something quite nasty like measles. We don't see the disease, ergo, we don't tend not worry too much about it.

Below a certain percantage vaccination (I believe 55% is oft quoted as a useful level for measles) epidemics can get away. When this happens and we end up with a few hundred dead, several thousands maimed and a health service left in pieces after having to deal with the sick we might, as a society, re-appraise the risk / reward matrix on this one. For a couple of decades at least.

[Annpan]

Below a certain percantage vaccination (I believe 55% is oft quoted as a useful level for measles) epidemics can get away. When this happens and we end up with a few hundred dead, several thousands maimed and a health service left in pieces after having to deal with the sick we might, as a society, re-appraise the risk / reward matrix on this one. For a couple of decades at least.

I believe the government figure is 80%. ie. when vaccination falls below 80% epidemic is likely.

I think it also has to do with the spread of the disease to different parts of the country... think if measles got to Glastonbury or BGG, where there might be a higher than average proportion of un-vaxed kids... then these kids go home taking the disease to all their un-vaxed friends. Nationwide epidemic within a few weeks.

[AXJ]

If these payments went to none smokers rather than "quitters" I'd be less likely to complain, as it is they punish good behaviour and bad behaviour, but reward those claiming to be moving towards good.

I'd guess most people who dont have children vacinated dont do so because they were two hung over to pick up their dole money AND go to the doctors in the same day.

I hear that the British National Party did well in yesterday's election.

[Clara]

Below a certain percantage vaccination (I believe 55% is oft quoted as a useful level for measles) epidemics can get away. When this happens and we end up with a few hundred dead, several thousands maimed and a health service left in pieces after having to deal with the sick we might, as a society, re-appraise the risk / reward matrix on this one. For a couple of decades at least.

I believe the government figure is 80%. ie. when vaccination falls below 80% epidemic is likely.

I think it also has to do with the spread of the disease to different parts of the country... think if measles got to Glastonbury or BGG, where there might be a higher than average proportion of un-vaxed kids... then these kids go home taking the disease to all their un-vaxed friends. Nationwide epidemic within a few weeks.

That´s an interesting theory AnnPan and one that I have considered, given that the vast majority of foreign kids here are not vaxxed, and many of Sadie´s friends live in communities where NONE of the kids of vaxxed and likewise she will be going to the local steiner school, where vaccination levels will be virtually zilch. I do know that there was a mumps "epidemic" in one such community a few years back, it didn´t spread beyond the community and none of the children were seriously harmed (and given the "out-there" nature of said community, I doubt that any children recieved conventional medical treatment).

[AXJ]

That´s an interesting theory AnnPan and one that I have considered, given that the vast majority of foreign kids here are not vaxxed, and many of Sadie´s friends live in communities where NONE of the kids of vaxxed and likewise she will be going to the local steiner school, where vaccination levels will be virtually zilch. I do know that there was a mumps "epidemic" in one such community a few years back, it didn´t spread beyond the community and none of the children were seriously harmed (and given the "out-there" nature of said community, I doubt that any children recieved conventional medical treatment).

Blimey, glad I live in the Basque country, not getting your children vacinated here qualifies (quite rightly in my personal opinion) as neglect and they'll see you in the family court with the social workers demanding a piggy back for the rest of your parental life, if they let you keep the kids.

For me, not haviing children vacinated is at best foolish. Of course, each to their own. What we need is a major epidemic so we cn all be reminded of what life was like when doctors worried about humors, and people didn't wash to keep the desease out of thier pours. I truly sympathise with anyone who has had a bad reaction to a vacination, the same as I feel sorry for someone who got salmonella poisoning from an organic lettuce. I would not stop me from choosing organic when I can, all my sprogs and pets are upto date, so far so good.

[Clara]

That´s an interesting theory AnnPan and one that I have considered, given that the vast majority of foreign kids here are not vaxxed, and many of Sadie´s friends live in communities where NONE of the kids of vaxxed and likewise she will be going to the local steiner school, where vaccination levels will be virtually zilch. I do know that there was a mumps "epidemic" in one such community a few years back, it didn´t spread beyond the community and none of the children were seriously harmed (and given the "out-there" nature of said community, I doubt that any children recieved conventional medical treatment).

Blimey, glad I live in the Basque country, not getting your children vacinated here qualifies (quite rightly in my personal opinion) as neglect and they'll see you in the family court with the social workers demanding a piggy back for the rest of your parental life, if they let you keep the kids.

As you probably know AXJ, "well-brought-up" Spanish kids are raised on a diet of formula, junk food and anitbiotics......

[DominicJ]

I'd hardly call losing to the Greens and 1000 and a bit votes good, more like labour did fantasticaly badly and the Lib Dems failed to pick any of it up, which in itself is a disaster for them. There aim is supposed to be to take the middle ground from Labour, or so they were claiming last time they canvessed me.
Not quite sure on the relevence here though, or to my comment, me being a libertarian, perhaps you could stay on top or start a thread about the election if you have some wish to discuss it...
You really did take it personaly when I told you off in the special talents thread didnt you, am I going to have to put up with several more pages worth of ranting IM's?

[Annpan]

I'd hardly call losing to the Greens and 1000 and a bit votes good, more like labour did fantasticaly badly and the Lib Dems failed to pick any of it up, which in itself is a disaster for them. There aim is supposed to be to take the middle ground from Labour, or so they were claiming last time they canvessed me.
Not quite sure on the relevence here though, or to my comment, me being a libertarian, perhaps you could stay on top or start a thread about the election if you have some wish to discuss it...
You really did take it personaly when I told you off in the special talents thread didnt you, am I going to have to put up with several more pages worth of ranting IM's?

?

[AXJ]

As you probably know AXJ, "well-brought-up" Spanish kids are raised on a diet of formula, junk food and anitbiotics......

Yes I know, that's why I am glad I don't live in Spain