t*sco and s*insbury

[grahoom]

read today that both are planning launching organic veg boxes, so they will be poaching even more trade from local farmers, and forcing wholesale prices down.

i really do not like t*sco's... destroyers of communities! grrrr

[Shirley]

Hmmmm - and no doubt the organic veggies in the boxes will be the same as the stuff in the shop ie. organic tatties from peru rather than locally grown... organic raspberries from the USA in the middle of the scottish season!!

It's a monopoly... of sorts isn't it... supermarkets as a whole (no matter whether it's t*sco or S*insburgers or other) kicking out the small producers.

[den_the_cat]

i really do not like t*sco's... destroyers of communities! grrrr

At the risk of being lynched on here, are they really? I'm too young to remember not having supermarkets around and I still use the butcher for meat if I buy it and the baker for bread and cakes. My grandparents lived in a village on a main bus route and the village grocer, baker, butcher, chemist, post office and general stores are still going strong there.

I'm not sure its the supermarkets which are destroying communities, its the communities themselves aren't supporting the communities (in more ways than just shopping out of town). Is it fair to blame a business for catering for what people are asking for? If the supermarkets didn't give people what they wanted then no one would go there.

I'm all for choice and keeping small businesses going but I'm not sure that its reasonable to make supermarkets into personifications of all things evil without taking some responsibility for that ourselves.

[Shirley]

Not going to lynch anyone for having an opinion.... but suggested reading would include 'Shopped - The shocking power of British supermarkets by Joanna Blythman... see if your local library has it in....

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0007 ... e&n=266239

[Hillbilly]

bloody well said Sir! (Den). They are, at least, also making an effort.

[Hillbilly]

People in glass houses should also not throw stones....

[grahoom]

I think they are.

super markets are able to control the amount they pay to wholesalers.

for example, t*sco dictates what they will pay to a wholesaler, and will refuse to buy from them if their price are not granted.

massive super markets can keep their costs down, and a lot of local small business suffer as they are just not able to compete.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story ... 86,00.html

One of the last towns in England without a supermarket, Sheringham in north Norfolk, is set to lose its vibrant shopping centre after a series of secret deals between Norfolk councils and T***o.
Britain's most successful supermarket chain has already opened stores in once thriving towns in Norfolk. This has caused havoc among the family businesses and weekly markets which have given the area a special quality, attracting many for family holidays.

here is a good article, just one of many that highlight the problem.

granted people can't afford high prices so the lure of super market prices is very appealing, but to what cost?

ofcourse we are responsible for where we shop, thats why i chose not to shop at places like t*sco's - and try to keep my business to local and independent stores.

[den_the_cat]

it looks interesting and I'll try and pick up a copy but from the reviews on amazon it does seem to state arguments that I've seen and heard before. That doesn't make them invalid of course but it does mean that, while I don't condone their marketing practises/stifling competition/bullying producers I do think that they're all just a larger corporate version of any business tactics.

I'm not saying supermarkets are warm and fluffy familly run companies who care about their customers, but, in the same way that I don't think you can villify McDonalds for selling junkfood to kids (personal responsibility is something we should all have) I don't think you can villify supermarkets for all that is wrong in the world.

If supermarkets kill communities then we allow them to be killed. The town I'm moving to has a newsletter which is stopping because from 1200 people no one us prepared to collate contributions (yes I might volunteer but I don't actually live there yet so...). If you want to make the argument that because the supermarkets exist there is no longer a natural gathering place at the village shop and blah blah blah and therefore no community spirit, then you can and you may be right. But the argument could also be that TV is killing community spirit or cars are or people working in larger more centrally located businesses or simply that people are changing and don't care any more.

I really don't believe that its because there's a Tescos five miles away that the community no longer exists.

[grahoom]

But the argument could also be that TV is killing community spirit or cars are or people working in larger more centrally located businesses or simply that people are changing and don't care any more.

I really don't believe that its because there's a Tescos five miles away that the community no longer exists.

true, i don't think that super markets are the sole reason for community breaking down, but i do think that it is adding to the situation.

i think though, my main gripe is that up until recently local veg boxes have been used as a means for local farms to sell their product and take back some of the market place that has been taken from them due to the bigger corporations.

now that T***o's and co have decided to go into this line of business, it means that the local farmers will slowly stop selling their products as people will start to use T***o's.

ofcourse i am not saying that it is T***o's fault alone, it is our fault for allowing it to happen.

when over 1 in 8 of every pound in the UK goes to one company, alarm bells ring for me. when one company controls over 30 percent of the grocery market, then you have to wonder how powerful they are and what that power can do with regards to the commercial world, and how soon we will be limited the choices we have as a consumer.

[den_the_cat]

oh yeah, I wont argue with that. But its the whole 'Company X is a huge conglomerate and therefore should somehow decide to stop making money' argument that I cant agree with :)

The basic tenets of any business are to buy your supplies cheaper, undercut the competition/supply a better product - whichever market forces demand and make as much money as you can. The co-ops ethical stance is as much about marketing as Asdas rollbacks or Tescos every little helps and the local greengrocers remembering your name and asking about your kids is marketing too.

On the veg box thing. Yes you may be right they may import it all from Nairobi for all I know, but then again, they may not. The majority of the organic veg box schemes are actually not local anyway, in fact I've had to hunt to find one which is, and even that still buys produce in from the UK and Europe sometimes.

Perhaps what will happen is that people getting the veg box will decide that the taste is great and they might buy more organic from the supermarket (which is better than non organic because it raises the amount of organic consumed and funds more organic farmers) or even from the farmers market because you never get enough carrots for a family of four in the box and the kids are prepared to eat them now?

I think that we should tentatively applaud supermarkets for initiatives like this. After all, barn and free range eggs now account for more than 60% of eggs sold in the UK (according to Radio 4 the other week) and thats because Supermarkets are pushing the egg producers to do so, the goverment deadlines on battery production keep being pushed back and back, market forces are whats causing the change. Like you say, the wield HUGE power and if Supermarkets decide to make ethical and organic their catchwords for the next few years it will encourage production of much better quality organic produce and bring it much more to the public in general.

As for shopping there. Well I agree we should shop elsewhere as much as possible, but on the other hand my local chop sells Happy Shopper goods and you don't want to get me started on the ethics of buying that stuff

[grahoom]

oh yeah, I wont argue with that. But its the whole 'Company X is a huge conglomerate and therefore should somehow decide to stop making money' argument that I cant agree with :)

i guess part of my problem, is that i don't altogether agree with the whole notion of the capitalist world we live in... strange as it may sound.

a utopia i know i will never see, but i don't like the current trend of every town slowly becoming clones of each other with the same chain outlets and the slow decline of independent shops and traders.

hehe, let me know about the happy shopper stuff!!! please!!! :)

[grahoom]

btw, here is the link to the article in the independent

http://news.independent.co.uk/business/ ... 206095.ece

Until now, local farmers have seized the initiative in offering specially selected seasonal produce, leaving the supermarket industry exposed to a backlash against stocking year-round supplies of produce such as asparagus, strawberries and green beans.

In retaliation, the biggest supermarket chains have pledged to source more local and regional products to counter the soaring popularity of farmers' markets. Their fightback comes as the Competition Commission is conducting an inquiry into the UK's £100bn-a-year grocery industry amid fears the top four chains control too much of the market.

[Shirley]

Throwing stones... but not always living in a glass house.

Fair enough I do buy from supermarkets but I can't afford not to at the moment. We do buy our meat from the local producers and have resigned ourselves to the fact that we just have to eat less of it... not a huge problem for me anyway as I prefer the veggies anyway.

In an ideal world (was that one of the 101 phrases?) we would buy everything from the local shop but if that local shop sells sorry looking veggies and convenience foods then sorry, no, I won't buy those.

Next year we'll definitely have lots more veggies than we have this year... we had to hold off on the planting because of the forestry people coming in to hack down the lleylandi - that's now been done but there is still lots to clear up.

If there are enough people interested in our area we can start buying collectively and hopefully by-pass the supermarket all together... but by doing that are we STILL putting the small shopkeeper out of business?? I guess it depends on what the people in the collective were doing before.

[den_the_cat]

from the article

In retaliation, the biggest supermarket chains have pledged to source more local and regional products to counter the soaring popularity of farmers' markets. Their fightback comes as the Competition Commission is conducting an inquiry into the UK's £100bn-a-year grocery industry amid fears the top four chains control too much of the market.

Sainsbury's said its organic boxes would aim to support the local food economy although it admitted it would resort to nationwide sourcing if necessary. T***o intends to source its vegetables from East Anglia in the first instance. But environmental campaigners warned that the supermarkets' push into box schemes could force existing players out of business.

well thats cool. Of course when they go national I suspect it wouldn't be so regionally produced, and there are issues with whether they would stick in imports if enough people asked for something exotic, but they sound like they might try it 'properly' at least.

As to whether supermarkets moving into box schemes would force existing players out, I don't know. If I already have a box scheme am I likely to change to a supermarket one? Since supermarkets sell organic veg already and do delivery services already logic says no, I'd stick with who I have. So supermarkets are likely to capture a large part of the new market.

Will that result in a lack of new customers for existing schemes? Less clear - if supermarkets provide good fresh local produce then quite possibly. But perhaps their marketing will also encourage people to check other local schemes? If they provide poor quality boxes then a lot of people will be put off but a lot of people will like the idea and look elsewhere. If they provide good boxes but move to non local produce then there's a strong opportunity there to win over box customers if local producers can get together and promote themselves.


and yes, I understand a dislike for the capitalist world we live in, but the local farmer is as much as capitalist as the supermarket conglomerate, just on a smaller scale. There is no way the UK is getting out of a capitalist system so we either live with it or go self sufficient. If anyone here can go totally self sufficient then I'm SO impressed and proud to be part of a forum that offers support to you, but I'm also realistic enough to know that for most of us we have to live life making the best of reality and doing little things to change it where we can. Boycotting Tescos is valid but not praising them when they do something right is a bit unfair :)



Shirlz, the collective buying thing sounds great to me. The money you save on staples will probably get spent at the shop on something else :)

[circlecross]

I think that a lot of the poeple shopping want food, cheap and now. Look at places like Iceland and Farmfoods - cheap, frozen processed rubbish alot of it, but they do a brisk trade, and everyone comes out with several branded carrier bags. I have seen neither wild horses, nor burly types forcing arms up backs. T***o, again sells out of season, and imports organic, but still people will buy what they are familiar with, or have grown a taste for, because it requires no thought. On the plus side, I can do a lot of grocery shopping from our T***o from UK goods (not round the corner from me, but nearer than Kenya). Other supermarkets, and some of my local shops cannot claim that. T***o value veg often comes from UK - I noticed green beans from Kenya, but Pak choi from Cambridgeshire! If you are forced by cost, location or time to shop at one of these places, then it is possible to buy some UK goods. Some of us aren't lucky enough to have time or a well stocked local shop, or even lots of money, but we can make our vote count. I don't think people want the inconvenience of thinking too hard about the impact their shopping or habits have on the world or the local community, but for those of us who do think about these things, we can make a difference even if it is just for our own piece of mind.