Retreat biting.

[trinder]

Sorry to disagree so directly Riff raff element but I think this analogy is wrongly used.


I've seen a similar technique to that FF describes applied to horses during breaking. The only way a human can hope to control a horse is for the horse to believe the human to be dominant. Again, this doesn't have to be cruel,

As an experienced horse "breaker" this is not what I do. I simply train the horse - long before it reaches a scary situation to be obedient.
A specific exercise is used to tell the horse to not move his /her body off the centre line but to turn his/her head in the direction indicated by the rider. True perfection is that the horses shoulders and quarters are square but the head direction is oft to the direction to the horse will ultimately take before running you over. (Assuming you are standing directly towards the oncoming horse).

As horses do not have the same vision as humans it is then very easy to keep the body of the horse walking in a straight line in the gutter but turn the horses head away from the scary plastic bay ( whatever) in the hedge.
If the horse doesn't see it or you act quickly and speak to the horse before it is absolutely terrified by it you CONTROL the situation AND back to the dog situation. even once the horse has seen it if you give clear instructions before the horse is paralysed with fear it will obey.
This is not Dominance it is leadership. No leader ever got behind and shoo d the herd / pack. The leader simply walks off and the leadership was established because others followed

[the.fee.fairy]

This is is very confusing either you think :-
the fee fairy said

Maybe a little pat on the head, or a stroke down the back whenever you see another dog might work - it reminds your dog that you're there, and you're looking out for them. It reassures them that you're not in danger and you don't need protecting.

No dog would ever comfort another dog by stroking it. So either you think he thinks you are another dog or your dog knows you are a human / not a dog and therefore not a pack member?
I am a bit confused by what you think he /she thinks ?

What I meant by that is that sometimes the dog gets to focussed on the fact that there's a stranger and they're worried about it that a little touch can remind them that you're there and you're the one looking after them, rather than them forgetting you exist. I've seen my little Chi doing this with another dog - she focusses on the other dog adn gets nervous, even if I say her name, she's not listening, so a touch just reminds her that I'm there and I'm in control. After a small touch, she visibly relaxes. I probably should have said that if the dog is too focussed on the stranger and saying it's name doesn't work, then touch it to remind it. A pack leader wouldn't comfort, it would wait for aggression and then step in (unless he was male the the strange dog was a female...). By stepping in before aggressive behaviour is shown, you are reminding your dog how to behave.

It's one of those fine lines between being a dog and being a human. We do things that comfort us and the dog picks up on it. We can't act like a dog all the time, we can't pick a puppy up by the scruff of their neck in our teeth...so we adapt behaviours.

I also don't agree with all of Caesar Milan's teaching, especially the jabbing in the neck. I see why he thinks it's right, because a pack leader would nip another dog in the neck. However...we are not dogs and we don't have the right jaws to be able to do it. A pack leader nipping another dog in the neck is ready for the other dog to turn round and fight. We don't want to do that. We want the dog to realise that we're not happy and calm themself down. That's why i believe in a small touch to just remind the dog who's there and what's happening.

Maybe dominance training is not the way to put it...I like the leadership thing with the horses (i've never ridden a horse, so I don't know how they get trained). Maybe we're not dominating, we're leading our dogs in the best way we can for the individual dog.

[demi]

you are right that we are not dogs, dogs are dogs and we are humans and we make the rules, yes.
but if your dog is doing something unwanted, to pin it down on the floor by its neck or sit on top of it is a very dangerous technique which can lead to your dog becoming aggressive towards you and/or others as it is fearful and feels it needs to protect itself.

when we first got our dog as pup, from what i had learned growing up and from watching the dog whisperer, was that you should be able to take the dogs food away from it without it growling and you should do this from when they are pups so they're use to it.
when we got our dog she never displayed any possessiveness over food, i started taking the bowl away from for at intervals and after a few weeks she started growling at me when i did it ( as it was her food! ) so i did the ceaser millan thing, first the 'sshhttt' and a little poke in the neck and she turned round and bit me! and st bernards are big pups so it hurt! after that she was growling every time when she was eating if we were anywhere close to her.
obviously i stopped right away after she bit me as i knew it was my actions of trying to me dominant that had caused the problem.
it got to the point that when i went to feed her she would jump up at me to get the food and i was scared and had to just throw the bowl down on the ground and jump out the way.
luckily my mum does a lot of training with dogs for obedience, agility and flyball and shes currently doing some courses for dog training, including for aggressive dogs and she gave me some good books to read about positive reinforcement and and negative punishment.
so i started with obedience training first, which she could already do but i centred it around her food.
i took the empty food bowl in my hand and got her to sit beside me giving her treats for being behaved. then i put the empty bowl down beside her, told her to leave ( she knows the leave command )gave her a treat, picked it back up again, gave her another treat.
then i put the treat on the floor and told her to leave it, she looks at me and i gave her a diferent treat from my other and i pick up the original treat from the floor. repeated this loads then started putting the treat in the bowl, telling her to leave, and giving her a different treat for leaving it.
then to move onto her actual dinner.
so id get her to sit away from me while i make the food for her. if she comes close i walk into her and push her with my body and tell her 'back' and she moves back, then sit or down and stay.
then i bring the food tell her to sit and wait, put the food down tell her to leave, she looks at me then i tell her good girl go get it and the reward is her food.
ONCE SHE IS EATING SOMETHING I NEVER TAKE IT OFF HER!
i stood quietly beside her while shes eating every day for about a week so shee was used to me standing there.
then when she was fine with me there i progressed to very lightly touching her back.
after another week of this i moved onto stroking her all over her back. and also walking all round her, first keeping out the way of her head and the bowl then progressing onto walking all the way round.
now she knows im not going to take the food off her and she happily eats with me there. i always give her a rub on her back once shes eating the food just to remind her that its ok. and shes fine now.
however, i NEVER have her in the kitchen when we are eating. apart from the fact that she sits and stares at us slevering all over the floor, i would never trust her around the kids with food. when im cooking and she there tell her to get back right out the kitchen and she goes and lays down in the living room ( its open plan ) away from the food and goes to sleep. but when were sitting down to eat i put her outside and then clear up all the food before bringing her back in.
iv never had a problem since i fixed the problem that i made with dominance training on her. and shes a wonderful dog now and brilliant and gentle with the kids who jump all over her and pull her fur and she just lays back and takes it like a loving mother with her pups.
i would NEVER try any kind of dominance training again with any dog i have as i have first hand experience of how potentially dangerous it can be.
luckily i was able to fix my dog through positive reinforcement and negative punishment which are both gentile non-forceful training methods.

also just so you're clear, positive reinforcement is rewarding the dog for a desired behaviour and negative punishment is removing what the dog wants ( treat, toy, attention) as punishment for an unwanted behaviour.

an example of negative punishment is removing the dog from the room for misbehaving around guests or 'time out' .
if the dog is too enthusiastic and jumping over guests remove it from the room and bring it back once its calmed down. if it displays the same behaviour upon re-entering the room simply remove the dog again and repeat this until the dog enters the room in a calm state when it will be rewarded ( positive reinforcement ) by being allowed to stay in the room with the guests, which is what it wants.

[Susie]

Can I ask my dog dominance question?

My brother has a siberian husky/ german shepherd mix dog who is very, very gentle and I have never known him snap or growl or anything. He likes me very much, and when I visit him (well really I am visiting my brother but he may not know that), he likes to sit and gaze up at me intently for a long time, in a slightly spooky fashion. Whenever I see dog programmes on tv they say this is a dominance thing and I must stare him out, but he is so soft generally I kind of find it hard to believe, and if I stare back he just gives me his paw and then we have to sit holding hands and the whole thing gets ridiculous. So am I duty-bound to sit staring at Milo in order to establish pack hierarchy, or can I be getting on with other stuff when I am visiting him? (I think this is one of those situations where watching the Dog Whisperer occasionally has not actually helped me... ).

[oldjerry]

Has everyone got a dog that's mental? Mine just sort of learn to do what they're told,and in return get fed, exercised,chase rabbits,share the sofa when everyone's out,and do general doggy stuff.Are they missing out,cos no one here has a PHD in Pet Psychology?!

[demi]

Can I ask my dog dominance question?

My brother has a siberian husky/ german shepherd mix dog who is very, very gentle and I have never known him snap or growl or anything. He likes me very much, and when I visit him (well really I am visiting my brother but he may not know that), he likes to sit and gaze up at me intently for a long time, in a slightly spooky fashion. Whenever I see dog programmes on tv they say this is a dominance thing and I must stare him out, but he is so soft generally I kind of find it hard to believe, and if I stare back he just gives me his paw and then we have to sit holding hands and the whole thing gets ridiculous. So am I duty-bound to sit staring at Milo in order to establish pack hierarchy, or can I be getting on with other stuff when I am visiting him? (I think this is one of those situations where watching the Dog Whisperer occasionally has not actually helped me... ).

you should never stare into a dogs face! it can be perceived as threat and cause the dog to attack. not that this dog sounds like it would do that though, but still, as a general rule its rude to stare!
from what you've said it sounds like the dog really likes you and just wants your attention, which it gets by staring at you. and when you stare back it moves even closer to you by putting its paw on you. it just wants to be close to you because it likes you, its not trying to dominate you.
best thing to do is just ignore the dog and go about what you would normally be doing if it wasnt there. by not paying attention to the dog it will loose interest and go and lay down somewhere else.

[prison break fan]

Has everyone got a dog that's mental? Mine just sort of learn to do what they're told,and in return get fed, exercised,chase rabbits,share the sofa when everyone's out,and do general doggy stuff.Are they missing out,cos no one here has a PHD in Pet Psychology?!

Old jerry, I certainly don't consider her to be mental, she is very well behaved off the lead, playing happily with other dogs and at home is lovely. It is just one problem, which when I think about her background is understandable. We rescued her at 5 years old from a house where she was left alone all weekend, and during the week a lot of drugs were used around her. The day we got her we took her for a little walk and her paws bled as she hadn't been outside for so long.(we didn't know this at the time!) So all in all I think we are doing very well with her, and I thank everyone who has replied for their help and advice. We have just come back from a walk where I talked to her all the time but of course we didn't meet anyone! It's raining! pbf.

[oldjerry]

Sorry if I was too flippant,I know rescue dogs can be a handful.Actually my Patterdale came from a rescue with a bit of attitude.I can however look at her straight in the eye without causing offence....at 13 she's as blind as a bat..

[prison break fan]

Apology accepted!! I'm probably over sensitive!! When you live in a small village everyone knows you, and it just seems everyone else's dog is perfect! I know they're not just that people won't admit it! pbf.

[demi]

by the way can someone please tell me what pbf means?

[The Riff-Raff Element]

Sorry to disagree so directly Riff raff element but I think this analogy is wrongly used.


I've seen a similar technique to that FF describes applied to horses during breaking. The only way a human can hope to control a horse is for the horse to believe the human to be dominant. Again, this doesn't have to be cruel,



[/b]

Please don't apologise. I badly worded that sentence. I was thinking of a specific example. The bloke who runs the stables / riding club we use has a little sideline in taking on horses with what might be called "bad habits" learned from cruelty or bad handling and removing those bad habits. He sometimes gets some quality horse flesh very cheap, basically.

I watched him working with one five-year-old mare (50/50 Camargue / Arab - very pretty beast) who had developed quite a fear of and a certain contempt for humans and would rear up and flail her hooves quite unpredictably. He had her on the lunge when she did this once and he somehow over balanced her and put her on the ground - quite gently - with the lunge wrapped around her legs so that should could not stand. He then put his weight across her shoulder and stayed like that for about a minute before letting her up. He explained this in terms of a predator letting a prey animal go when it was helpless. Personally I was quite surprised that he was still alive after pulling a stunt like that.

She wasn't exactly polished after that, but it was the beginning. She's still a difficult horse, but she's growing calmer all the time, and she can be ridden, albeit by a small group of 11-13 year olds who have the right combination of competence, strength and light weight. She's still not made keen on adults (apart from the chap who trains her) getting on her back.

[trinder]

The problem with any kind of training is that it has to be done with absolutely perfect timing. Whenever someone is writing in an open forum, any advice that could potentially go pear shaped, is such a responsibility.

With training I once asked how many times would you need to repeat a training session and get it right every time to be able to consider the lesson learnt.

On this occasion I was talking about the "Half-halt" this is used to tell the horse that I am about to to tell you to do something. It can be described as the word "listen" It is the most fundamental lesson and underpins everything else. imagine I suddenly said "stand up" If you were not already listening to me it is likely that you would say "what"? and I would have to repeat the instruction. The half halt is used to precede every instruction and the number of horses who have never fully learnt this is unbelievable. It sets the horse up to becoming dead to first command and so the rider is more heavy and forceful when they shout the command again.

I shudder to think what must have happened to the young mare you described. Unfortunately she learned how to keep people away from her and as it has only not worked for her once, in an situation when she feels really threatened she is likely to try it again. Unless your friend is so careful and never gets her over-faced again for a very very long time ( time enough for her to forget the ploy)

An alternative often used is via "clicker training" it has a groan effect on many stalwarts who believe CONTROL is the only way. They often also believe it takes too long (not true). The enthusiasm that an animal has for reward based learning is well worth the time spent in training the initial meaning of the click. I spend ages watching these utube clips . but this one and the one with the rabbit is especially good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKnSls3zz9A

[the.fee.fairy]

Can I ask my dog dominance question?

My brother has a siberian husky/ german shepherd mix dog who is very, very gentle and I have never known him snap or growl or anything. He likes me very much, and when I visit him (well really I am visiting my brother but he may not know that), he likes to sit and gaze up at me intently for a long time, in a slightly spooky fashion. Whenever I see dog programmes on tv they say this is a dominance thing and I must stare him out, but he is so soft generally I kind of find it hard to believe, and if I stare back he just gives me his paw and then we have to sit holding hands and the whole thing gets ridiculous. So am I duty-bound to sit staring at Milo in order to establish pack hierarchy, or can I be getting on with other stuff when I am visiting him? (I think this is one of those situations where watching the Dog Whisperer occasionally has not actually helped me... ).

This one...I don't know! Finlay ( UK dog) sometimes does this, he looks at you like he loves you so much and he wished he could talk... The 'holding hands' is a new one!

Maybe he just wants to be close. As much as we shouldn't anthropomorphise animals, sometimes some behaviour is quite human.

Is he aggressive or whining when you move away? Or does he just shrug and get on with whatever he wants to do?

And yes...my Chihuahua is mental. She's also racist...if you're a white person, she'll be all over you and want to be best friends, but if you're Chinese, she'll shy away and hide behind me. I think she was hit or mistreated before I got her. I met the man she lived with for a summer and she was terrified of him, so I think he hit her. From then, she's decided that Chinese people are bad. Which is a bit difficult...living in China.

She does have some Chinese friends. There are two girls who are really good friends of mine, and she loves them. She also likes the young girl in the campus supermarket who picks her up and holds her like a baby.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

I shudder to think what must have happened to the young mare you described. Unfortunately she learned how to keep people away from her and as it has only not worked for her once, in an situation when she feels really threatened she is likely to try it again. Unless your friend is so careful and never gets her over-faced again for a very very long time ( time enough for her to forget the ploy)

She's not the first case where he's had to pick up the pieces, she won't be the last. Still, she's getting a second outing when the alternative would have been the abattoir. Half of the 25-odd horses he has he got cheap because they were "unridable."

[trinder]

Yes Jon
I'm sure he is a very good person who will provide a good home for her. All she ask is to be given the time and patience for her to understand what is required and what is a good thing to do instead of that "bad" thing she was doing. Takes me all the way back to prison break fans original question.
Anyone here a fan of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq9hourH ... r_embedded