goats keep dieing

[sortanormalish]

Once upon a time, when my old father was a boy, everyone had a goat. (I'm forbidden to tell you that was 70 years ago.) Unfortunately, goats fell out of favor here in Tennessee and even the vet knows nothing and admits it. All the stateside chats that I have tried have no answers but plenty of people with the same problem. So if you Europeans would be so kind I would be most appreciative.

Question one: Every summer almost all of my new kids die with no symptoms until maybe 12 hours before. They are de-wormed, not bloated, have good color until the symptoms emerge, no poisonous plants in the pastures, and are growing well, then they get sick and die 12 hours later.
The same 'illness' befalls some adult goats as well. Does any one have any ideas?

Question two: The vet said "I dunno" when I asked if goats needed any vaccinations. The goat books say to ask your vet. What do you vaccinate your goats for? Do my kids seem to have the symptoms?

Question three: Can I safely mix goats with sheep? I don't have the sheep yet and the neighbors don't either.

Thanks to anyone that answers.

[Bonniegirl]

Quite likely naval ill. An infection that gets into the umbilical cord. It helps is it is sprayed with iodine soon after birth.
This however won't help if the mothers haven't been vaccinated against clostridial diseases 4-6 before she kids.

Ideally kids are vaccinated at 3-4 months old at and around weaning, then again 4 weeks after that, then they need annual boosters.

There are other reasons the kids could have died, poor nitrition of the mother and vitamin and vitamin deficiencies

I'm sorry you are losing babies but before anyone keeps livestock more research MUST be done before keeping them or deaths will occur.

Join this site www.lifestyleblock.co.nz you will find the info there you need for starters

[sortanormalish]

Thanks for the reply. Wouldn't naval ill hit within the first or two month? These kids are 5-6 months old. They die just after weaning. I let their mothers wean them. I've had necropsies preformed on a couple. They don't show any deficiencies or common parasites. All the information I can find says goats in this area don't need vacinations. I can't even find what they get in other areas. I will vacinate if I can get the vaccine. It only takes one sick animal to introduce a disease.

I agree with you entirely about research. The problem is, unless you want a show goat that only sees the sun through a window in an air conditioned barn, America is not the place you are going to find useful information. I'm not upset with you. People who blindly stumble into animal ownership P--- me off too.

Do you know of any web sites that might be able to help me?

[Bonniegirl]

Oops apologies thats what happens when I read too fast.

Try the Lifestylblock forum in the link, they have a heap of goat people on there and some of them have lived in the US, it is a NZ forum but the goats basic needs would be the same I would say

Try this site too, it's very good http://fiascofarm.com/goats/index.htm

At 5-6mths it could be a worm burden, they would be grazing more after weaning and it's possible they could be picking worms up. One particular type of worm commonly called barbers pole is often detected far too late as it shows no obvious sighns until the goat becomes lethergic. Other signs are pale/grey gums, off food, and unsteady on their feet. This is because the worm sucks the red blood cells causing anaemia, they live in the goats stomach. If you catch it quick enough they can be saved but they take a while to get over it.

If there are no obvious toxic plants(look at the Fiasco farm link, it has a very good list of plants.)

I think it very possible worms that's causing it though. you will need to talk to your vet (even though he/she seems hopeless) about some kind of worming regime)

At this stage I wouldn't rely on some of these natural remedies, I have no faith in those to be honest. Vaccinations are a must, the 5 in 1 will cover those clostridial diseases.

Anything I've mentioned above will come up in a Google search. Good luck

[snapdragon]

Pretty sure goats and sheep can be kept together, my friend does this.
Maybe you could find someone who keeps fibre goats and sheep for more information.

[snapdragon]

would this be of any help to you? http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/artic ... ids06.html

[Bonniegirl]

The argument against keeping goats and sheep together is that they share the same worms, so th egeneral consensus is to keep them separate

[Jandra]

The argument against keeping goats and sheep together is that they share the same worms, so th egeneral consensus is to keep them separate

Not into goats, or sheep, but... sheep and sheep (and goats and goats) share the same worms, yet people put sheep with sheep (and goats with goats). I'm not sure of the logic of the argument of keeping them separate.

Jandra

[Bonniegirl]

Goats metabolism is faster than sheep, hence the need for a difference approach to drenching and mineral levels. They need more copper than sheep (the amount a goat needs could kill a sheep). They don't carry the same amount of body fat, nor do they have the "rainproofing" lanolin that sheep do, so have difference bulk feed and shelter needs.

So although they can and do share the same worm burden they also have very specific and differing needs.

That not to say that low numbers of either animal together is going to matter too much, as long as the owner has a good drenching/treatment programme in place it shouldn't cause too much of a bother.

One other point is that goats prefer longer grass and tend to eat the top 3rd off, I then usually run the cows in after the goats, and then finish off with the sheep as they prefer short grass.

If goats are eating grss too short this is whenn worms present nearer the ground start casuing problems in goats.

So quite logical really when you run two flocks of animals with very different needs

[sortanormalish]

Thanks for the help. I have a 7 in 1 that I use for the cattle. I noticed they have added sheep dosages this year. I will try that. CD-T was a given, despite that the vet said not needed. I'll keep it going as well.

Worms are horrific here. We worm like it's a religion. We use a rotation of 3 chemical wormers. We have seen great results with that. The best solution (also the easiest and cheapest) we found 4 years ago. We mixed 2 parts by volume of food grade diotomacious (spelling?) earth with one part forage mineral. To get enough mineral they have to eat enough DE to worm themselves. The scale our vet uses says a 4 is good and lower scores are better. After using the DE we dropped from a 4 to a 2.

Also, I considerd acidosis. I didn't see any symptoms and I keep baking soda available year round. Surely their mothers taught them to eat it.

I have had cattle, goats, and geese grazing the same paddocks for years, never bothered with rotation because they worked it out for themselves, this kid mortality problem just started two years ago. After I brought home two new goats.

I am in Tennessee, a couple hours from Fiasco. She doesn't vaccinate at all, I hope she doesn't get any unwelcome neighbors, which is what I think happened to me. The 'mystery illness', not any new people. Not surprisingly, our fainting goats, Tennessee fainting goats, have none of the problems my others have. They haven't even been wormed in three years! They see the drencher come out and my normally docile little friends seem to sprout fangs and wings. Seriously, they bite. Maybe something indigenous surfaced during the drought that the fainting goats were adapted to?

Another thing about Tennessee, there are almost no sheep. We only want to get a couple lambs to raise for the table. Any advice for keeping them healthy in hot humid areas?

[Bonniegirl]

If you had a good system that worked before you brought in new goats, I would be considering them as a possible source of something! Not sure what though, unless they just brought in worms with them.

As a preventative measure next time, it you bring in any new animals, quarantine them for a while first, gove them a drench and maybe get a faecal egg count done at your vets before allowing them in with your other animals.

When these kids died, had they lost any condition, ie lost weight off their food? Or did they appear healthy and they just died for no apparent reason?

It's hard to try and pinpoint something by not knowing the area really, but hot and humid does mean worms! Like you said. I wonder if the geese have passed on some salmonella to the goats! Mmmm, without a post mortem though we're groping in the dark really.

Regarding the 7in1 just be careful, if it's stated ok for sheep it might be ok for goats, check first with the vet though.
Remember if they've never been vaccinated( this includes adults) you will need to vaccinated again 4-6 wks after the intial dose. Check the label for dosage.

As for the sheep in hot and humid areas, my main concern would be flystrike, flies just love a nice hot sweaty sheep to lay eggs in! Use preventative remedies and get them shorn before it gets too hot.

[Jandra]

Goats metabolism is faster than sheep, hence the need for a difference approach to drenching and mineral levels. They need more copper than sheep (the amount a goat needs could kill a sheep). They don't carry the same amount of body fat, nor do they have the "rainproofing" lanolin that sheep do, so have difference bulk feed and shelter needs.

Thanks, I can see the logic in that

Jandra

[sortanormalish]

Ok. I feel like kicking myself. First, thanks to everyone who tried to help. It hit me in a dream, well actually I was just lying there in the bed staring at the clock. When my kids were dying we were in a really bad drought. Our pastures are 60-70% legume grasses. When the late summer rain came, the grass started growing rapidly, trying to get to seed before the fall and in the process built up nitrates. I checked with the vet again. Sure enough, they didn't check for nitrate poisoning, afterall you would know if you had fertilized a field just before grazing an animal on it right? All the symptoms point to nitrate poisoning. Simple solution, treat fall like it's the spring!

[Bonniegirl]

Good on you!

A google search came up with lots of info, this one looked pretty good for info

http://aces.nmsu.edu/pubs/_b/b-807.html