BNP on Question Time

[Masco&Bongo]

didnt NG say something to Bonny Greer on QT that it was all those who moved to 'Britain' after the last ice age, (seriously he did!) how do find out who THEY are then? DNA testing??...maybe if your eyebrows meet and you cant walk upright?...actually that most of the BNP anyway.....

Oh, Human Resources will have the records for that......

[MKG]

Actually, it IS DNA testing that suggests it but, as usual, the facts have been completely (intentionally) misinterpreted. Discounting any immigration since the 19th century (although a good number of those do display the same characteristics for various reasons) there is an underlying "remnant" of DNA after the genetic evidence of the Danes, Anglo Saxons and Normans (and the Romans to an extent, although that actually meant a general mixture of genes from all over the Empire) has been stripped away. It really is only a remnant - most DNA belongs to the above-mentioned groups. However, it does mean that anyone carrying the remnant genes (that's a large majority of the population) belongs to a line which has probably been here since the end of the last glaciation.

So there you have your "British aborigine". Comically, though, although NG has embraced this concept, he conveniently forgets the rest of the story. The remnant is a large enough sample to be able to search for similarities in other populations. It turns out that the closest genetic relatives of our Pleistocene forebears are the Basques, and it is known that the area where the Basques now live was a "pocket" of clement conditions during the last Ice Age.

Our aborigine suddenly becomes an immigrant and a foreigner. The only other humans around at the time were the Neanderthals who supposedly died out. Actually, I think they survived and formed a right-wing movement.

Mike

[Millymollymandy]

Right, that's the northerners sorted out. Wessex, by that time, consisted of everything south of a line between the Thames and Severn estuaries. That's the softies, then. Mercia (literally "borderlands") was everything in between - the Midlanders, therefore, who speak funny.
Mike

Oh bugger than means that South Bucks just north of the Thames is the Midlands then. Must brush up my Brummie or Notts accent!

[catboy]

isnt it strange that, prompted by the BNP , and maybe even before their recent popularity, that Britons have started to question thier identity from a geographic standpoint, there seems so much about certain folks claiming to be more british cos there family have lived on the island longer than others. This seems really really odd to me. In my own case i'm sure i could trace my rellys back yonks, but i dont feel especially British, and yet the Badger (mrs catboy) who's folks came here in '69, is to be seen on the edge of her seat whenever the england play that game with the 22 men and the ball shouting her head off.

there seems to be no obvious correlation between longevity of residence in a location and personal affiliation. I lived for a while in Carmel, California not long enough to be called a resident by a long chalk, but ask me where i felt most at home, happiest, most connected with a place and its there....

[MKG]

isnt it strange that, prompted by the BNP , and maybe even before their recent popularity, that Britons have started to question thier identity from a geographic standpoint, there seems so much about certain folks claiming to be more british cos there family have lived on the island longer than others. This seems really really odd to me. In my own case i'm sure i could trace my rellys back yonks, but i dont feel especially British, and yet the Badger (mrs catboy) who's folks came here in '69, is to be seen on the edge of her seat whenever the england play that game with the 22 men and the ball shouting her head off.

there seems to be no obvious correlation between longevity of residence in a location and personal affiliation. I lived for a while in Carmel, California not long enough to be called a resident by a long chalk, but ask me where i felt most at home, happiest, most connected with a place and its there....

I think most people feel as you do, Catboy - I certainly feel no affinity with the place I was born. I've never felt more at home in my life than when I was sitting on the shores of Lake Garda but, although I discovered later that I had Italian ancestry, they certainly weren't from there. But I think it's natural and healthy to question origins. A problem only arises when the results of that questioning are used to foster all manner of nationalistic idiocy. It's maybe particularly important for the British to question their origins, though, as a lot of us were brought up on the Victorian version of history (you know - the solid Saxons, Good King Richard, Robin Hood - that kind of stuff) which was heavily edited to justify the actions of an Imperial Britain. The real story is much more fascinating, but dispels once and for all the notion of supremacy of any kind. It also dispels the myth of boundaries (sticking to which produces ridiculous situations such as MillyMollyMandy being classified as a Midlander) which existed only in the minds of whoever happened to be the ruling dynasties of the times. Ordinary people got on with their lives and their neighbours, even if they did live on opposite sides of lines which no-one thought to tell them about. Which is, of course, as it should be.

("Good" King Richard, by the way, was king for ten years but spent only six months in this country. He couldn't speak a word of English and bankrupted the country at least twice in financing his gung-ho battles and ransoms. Those "Saxons" would have despised him. Without doubt, the worse king on record. Amazing what a bit of positive propaganda can do).

Mike

EDIT: Oh, and don't fall for the hype about genealogy. By far the majority of people in Britain would have enormous difficulty tracing their ancestry before 1837, when offical registration of births, marriages and deaths began. Church records can get you back a bit further, but there is a well-known phenomenon in genealogical circles known as the "1700 barrier". That's a mere 300 years ago - hardly a good grounding for claims of aboriginality. Anyway, as Bonnie Greer pointed out, we're all Africans.

EDIT 2: You really should talk to the Badger about football, you know. It's 11 men - the other 11 are in the opposing team

[Odsox]

EDIT: Oh, and don't fall for the hype about genealogy.

Yeah, that can be a right eye-opener.
I'm absolutely definitely a Man of Kent, no doubt about that, been there since the conquest (not personally you understand)

That was until I decided to research my family tree.
Now I've found that I'm descended from, Italian, Spanish, Gibraltarian, German (twice) and Sephardic Jews.
Oh well.

[MKG]

A heritage of which to be very proud, Odsox. But even if you had turned out to be an undiluted Man of Kent, I can't recall any pitched battles between those and the Kentishmen. No - they would have crossed the Medway (it is the Medway, I think?) on their day off and arranged a cricket match (or whatever was the equivalent) and had a rollicking good time getting pi**sed as rats together.

Neighbours, as I said.

Mike

[MuddyWitch]

Maybe part of this can be explained by our need to 'belong'?

People tend to gravitate towards those with whom they percieve a link, when in a crowd of strangers. For example, identifying those from the same area, those who support the same football/cricket/tiddlewinks team etc.

Perhaps it was easier for most of our ancestors who rarely left their county? My Gran, for example, never moved more than a mile in her life. (To live, obviously, she did VISIT other places!) Wheras I've lived all over the UK, due to a parent's job & then my own.

Had you asked my Gran where she was from she would have answered quite specifically with Radford, not just Nottingham, where-as I tend to say vaguely 'the Midlands' (I still support Forest, though )

MW

[catboy]

I'm absolutely definitely a Man of Kent,

can anyone explain to me the difference between a kentish man and man of kent, i've heard these phrases but never knew what they meant.



(me i'm a man of cant )

[MKG]

Man of Kent - born east of the Medway. Kentishman - born west of the Medway. Another one of those funny lines.

Mike

[Big Al]

How far does one actually have to go back to find out if you are really 'British'??

A lady who I work with has managed to trace her ancestry all the way back to a Viking invasion, centuries ago - so, is she british then?

My mum has traced our family back to France and Italy in the 17th Century, although looking and listening to anyone in our family, you'd be forgiven for thinking we haven't got a foreign bone in our body.

Given that genetically, the majority of 'british' people are descended from invaders - roman, viking etc... how does one tell whether we are actually british??

Personally i'd be dubious of tracing family trees back to vikings unless they are royalty or nobillity etc as most people couldn't right pre 1700's

As for being British, I'm not I'm English !! I once got my passport application sent back 43 tiimes because i kept putting english rather than British. A hand scrawled note acompnied the last return and on it it said "If you don't put British then you will not get a passport" !

I am not Welsh, Scottish, Irish or any of the other mixes. I'm English and proud of it so that's what I am...... oh I never did get that passport either...

[Big Al]

Actually, it IS DNA testing that suggests it but, as usual, the facts have been completely (intentionally) misinterpreted. Discounting any immigration since the 19th century (although a good number of those do display the same characteristics for various reasons) there is an underlying "remnant" of DNA after the genetic evidence of the Danes, Anglo Saxons and Normans (and the Romans to an extent, although that actually meant a general mixture of genes from all over the Empire) has been stripped away. It really is only a remnant - most DNA belongs to the above-mentioned groups. However, it does mean that anyone carrying the remnant genes (that's a large majority of the population) belongs to a line which has probably been here since the end of the last glaciation.

So there you have your "British aborigine". Comically, though, although NG has embraced this concept, he conveniently forgets the rest of the story. The remnant is a large enough sample to be able to search for similarities in other populations. It turns out that the closest genetic relatives of our Pleistocene forebears are the Basques, and it is known that the area where the Basques now live was a "pocket" of clement conditions during the last Ice Age.

Our aborigine suddenly becomes an immigrant and a foreigner. The only other humans around at the time were the Neanderthals who supposedly died out. Actually, I think they survived and formed a right-wing movement.

Mike

In a poll a few days after QT there was something where, I think, 10% of those questioned said they would possibly think about voting for the BNP. I would have probably been one of those, (admittedly I've never been on thier website or spoke to one of them) until this topic has been aired here. Now their inconsistant and beligerant retoric is laid bare for all to see makes it totally reprehensiblle for me to think I'd consider voting for them at all. But its a shame that this discussion is not being had by the major parties because if they all got overr to the general public the same thoughts as Mike has here then there would be no BNP I'm sure.

I bet it's fun when the BNP come knocking on your door Mike....

[Big Al]

EDIT 2: You really should talk to the Badger about football, you know. It's 11 men - the other 11 are in the opposing team

No you need to talk to my missus. She is the anorack to end all anoracks!!
We sit in a crowd of, i'd guess 50 odd blokes in our section and she is known by them all as " the oracle"

Picture the scene, The home team is crashing down on goal and the linesman signals for off side. The crowd roar in disgust..........THEN THEY AS MY WIFE IS THE LINESMAN WAS RIGHT !!

Last Christmas I bought her a book entitled " a century of poolies" and it was a bio of all the players who had played for Hartlepool United over the last 100 years. Yup, a statofreaks dream but it's pages are dogeared now.

[Millymollymandy]

As for being British, I'm not I'm English !! I once got my passport application sent back 43 tiimes because i kept putting english rather than British. A hand scrawled note acompnied the last return and on it it said "If you don't put British then you will not get a passport" !

Yet if you fly to America and put British as your nationality on the immigration form, they will not accept that. For entering America your nationality has to be UK. Like that is a nationality - what - UKish?! All the British on the plane had to be given out new forms to fill in!

(that was in 1992, so it might have changed since then)