Does anyone here save PSB seed ?

[Odsox]

The reason I ask is purely academic
I just got the new T&M catalogue and one thing caught my eye, they have a summer variety of purple sprouting broccoli.
But the thing that really caught my eye was their statement that "unlike other varieties the seeds do not need to be chilled over the winter to germinate".
I for one didn't know that PSB seeds needed to be chilled, although I have never saved seeds myself and there is the possibility that seed suppliers chill them before they sell them, but that seems unlikely. So it would be interesting if anyone here HAS saved their own seed and germinated it without chilling ... after all, you normally don't sow PSB seed until April/May anyway, so I don't see where the chilling part could take place.
Even the plants don't need chilling to produce spears as mine usually start in October.
Or (dare I say it), are they pulling a fast one just to sell a new variety ?

For those without a catalogue it is on-line at http://www.thompson-morgan.com/seeds1/product/4778/1/
Although here they call it "vernalisation, (winter chill)" which is also wrong as "vernal" means spring ... not winter, or am I now being pedantic

[Green Aura]

Didn't I read on here somewhere that it's no good keeping brassica seeds?

I've never tried keeping any as I've never managed to finish a packet yet We still got good results from a packet of psb seeds 5 years out of date.

[Millymollymandy]

I've tried summer (white) SB and it was rubbish and I know I'm not the only one who found this. Just didn't produce any spears, well Ok perhaps a couple of tiny ones (miles to small to eat) which went straight into flower.

I couldn't leave my winter PSB to set seed as it needs to come out to make room for other things.

[Odsox]

I have never saved seed from brassicas either, mainly because of the space they need or they are totally eaten (cabbages)
I do know that Red Russian Kale grows like a weed though. I grew some many years ago and then made a lawn out of the land they were on and when I dug it up again about 10 years or so later I had Russian Kale seedlings everywhere.

I see that The Real Seed Co have both early & late PSB seeds, so it must be feasible to save your own.

[grahamhobbs]

Hi Odsox, thanks for initiating an interesting enquiry forcing me once again to explore areas I've never considered before. Quoting from DEFRA talking about brassicas "How different varieties respond to vernalization has a big effect on when and how they mature"
taken from a report on the causes of variation in maturity of purple sporouting broccoli
http://randd.defra.gov.uk/Default.aspx? ... ctID=14906

This needs further investigation because it could effect how you store brassica seed, whether you keep them in the fridge and for how long. Do the seed companies do this before they sell them and if not why don't they say on the packet that they need to be chilled for a certian period before use?

Or is it that without this vernalization the date of maturity is a little bit variable, which is probably of importance if you are growing fields of the stuff, but probably not important for the average gardener.

T&M's claim that their new variety "unlike other varieties the seeds do not need to be chilled over the winter to germinate", is going much further implying that without chilling, other varieties won't germinate. I cannot ever remember reading such a claim from any other source ever before, certainly not for brassicas in general. Is it peculiar to Purple Sprouting Broccoli, it would seem unlikely?

Checking the seed saving sources to hand, there are only the general comments about saving brassicas, including broccoli, in a cool, dry place, no other special requirements.

[grahamhobbs]

Odsox, after a bit more research I think I understand what T&M are trying to say. Normally you have to sow PSB seed one year for it to flower the following. The vernalization is not of the dry seed but of the planted seed, seedling or plant. The new variety presumably allows you to sow say in spring and harvest in the autumn, whereas normally with PSB it would be the following spring. (Personally I don't understand why people want PSB any other time than spring)


Vernalisation in the life cycle of a plant

Certain plants require a cold spell in their life cycle to initiate the sequence of events that leads to flowering. The term vernalisation is used to describe the promotion of flowering by exposure of young plants to cold temperatures. It is effective on seeds that have taken in water or on a growing plant, but not on dry seeds. The necessary 'chilling' treatment may be for only a few days but often several weeks are required. The vernalisation requirement is associated with species found growing in regions with winter temperatures that are unsuitable for plant growth. You can see the disadvantage to the plant of premature germination and growth (at the end of the summer season) before the cold winter season.

Vernalisation can be illustrated by the well known example of 'winter' wheats and 'spring' wheats. In temperate climates, winter wheats are sown during the autumn and must have a cold period if they are to flower in the following summer. Spring wheats, however, do not require chilling and so can flower later in the same season, but the yield is likely to be lower than that of the winter wheats. Winter wheats can be sown in the spring but would require an artificial cold treatment to ensure flowering in the summer season of the same year. This artificial treatment is done in some northern regions, such as Russia.

The mechanism of vernalisation at the cellular level is not understood. There is evidence that the requirement is for chilling of the shoot apex and there have been suggestions that gibberellins (GA) are linked with the response. Involvement of a hypothetical plant growth substance, given the name vernalin, has been proposed and clearly there are interactions between temperature requirements and daylength control (photoperiodism).

Vernalisation offers an interesting example of the way that plants have evolved to exploit the predictability of seasonal change and, in this case, to ensure that flowering occurs at an appropriate time. It also gives an example of how environmental factors control and interact with different stages in the life cycle.

[Odsox]

Odsox, after a bit more research I think I understand what T&M are trying to say. Normally you have to sow PSB seed one year for it to flower the following. The vernalization is not of the dry seed but of the planted seed, seedling or plant. The new variety presumably allows you to sow say in spring and harvest in the autumn, whereas normally with PSB it would be the following spring. (Personally I don't understand why people want PSB any other time than spring)

Not strictly true Graham, although it might well be true for Late Purple Sprouting Broccoli.
As I said in my original message, my Early PSB normally starts producing spears in October and continues through to April/May.
The first year I came here I sowed them in early March and had spears in August ... right in the middle of my runner bean season !
So yes, there may be an element of truth in the T&M catalogue, but I still think it's more a marketing ploy.

[grahamhobbs]

Traditionally both early and later PSB flowered after xmas (one a few weeks before the other). It was veg that sat in the ground for a long time but like kale it was a hungry gap veg, so people put up with it.

In recent years due to the demand for it in fashionable restaurants, etc they have brought out varieties that will flower before xmas. So there is nothing that new with the T&M claim, so you are right in that it is marketing hype.

As to why your plants flowered the same summer, I'm perplexed, I can only think that you planted them so early that the seed in the ground or seedling underwent the vernalisation, perhaps there was a cold spell. Not sure, would like to know more.

Perhaps you had discovered a new variety that doesn't require vernalisation and therefore should market the seed!!

[Odsox]

As to why your plants flowered the same summer, I'm perplexed, I can only think that you planted them so early that the seed in the ground or seedling underwent the vernalisation, perhaps there was a cold spell. Not sure, would like to know more.

Nope, bog standard early PSB seed.
Not chilled either as I don't sow any brassica in the garden soil as they quickly get browsed off by slugs etc.
Sown in polystyrene cells, germinated in the greenhouse, planted out in April and spears by October.

I may just get some of those T&M seeds as it looks like they take 4 months from sowing to harvest. So might be a candidate for my polytunnel, sown in November and harvest in March/April.
Worth a try.

[grahamhobbs]

Odsox give it a try, although if they take 4 months over summer it might be longer over winter even in the polytunnel, but certainjly worth an experiment.

Can't help thinking about your PSB. If you sowed in March and they flowered in October, we have had some strange weather in recent years, I don't know about Ireland but we have had very hot April, Mays but going quite cold for a period in July. Did this spark them into flower? I just don't know.

I'm also very interested in growing plants for the hungry gap period, without having plants sat taking up space for 12months or more. So I'm trialling standard calabrese in the polytunnel, I've sown at various times since August, to check them out. Although i have a bit of a problem because 1) I can only get to the allotment at the weekends in winter (pitch dark otherwise) and 2) the water is cut off for 4 to 5 months, so watering lots of plants becomes difficult.

Although various seed companies are now bringing out calabrese varieties that are supposed to over winter outside (although for some reason I don't understand) they are offered only as plants. Although having said that last night I've seen one company that are offering seeds for next year.

[Millymollymandy]

As to why your plants flowered the same summer, I'm perplexed, I can only think that you planted them so early that the seed in the ground or seedling underwent the vernalisation, perhaps there was a cold spell. Not sure, would like to know more.

Nope, bog standard early PSB seed.
Not chilled either as I don't sow any brassica in the garden soil as they quickly get browsed off by slugs etc.
Sown in polystyrene cells, germinated in the greenhouse, planted out in April and spears by October.

I may just get some of those T&M seeds as it looks like they take 4 months from sowing to harvest. So might be a candidate for my polytunnel, sown in November and harvest in March/April.
Worth a try.

Why don't you just sow your regular PSB later then you might not get it flowering so early? I don't sow PSB or kale until around June and they get planted out about mid to late August. Both carry on growing through the cold days of autumn and kale grows all through the winter.

If you sow in November I'm not so sure you'd get seeds to germinate or grow much in the cold dark weather when they are only tiny - though if you want to do an experiment for the rest of us that's be good, and I do know you are pretty good at getting the most unusual things to produce fruit at odd times i.e. toms in the winter!

[Odsox]

The first year I moved here MMM, I sowed my PSB the same time as I did when I lived in Kent, and that's when they started producing spears in August. The next years I sowed them later and later but got to the point where they either produced spears in October or made such pitifully small plants that were not worth it.
I haven't grown PSB at all for the last 8 years or so as they take up too much room for too long, but might just try this new one.
I don't see any problem getting seeds to germinate in November as I have heated propagators with a growlux light if necessary (ex-aquarium) and growing on in my frost free tunnel. It's worth a try anyway and if it doesn't work I can still grow the rest as per instructions on the seed packet in April.

[Millymollymandy]

I haven't grown PSB at all for the last 8 years or so

Oh I didn't know that but then you never have a lean period like the rest of us with your frost free climate and polytunnel!

[grahamhobbs]

I see the variety at T&M which heads up in summer (thus the blurb about not needing vernalisation). They also do one, Rudolf, which has been out a few years that head up in late autumn (presumably the dip in temperature is enough to set them off).

As for your seeds I think they must have been majic or from T&M trials for this new variety!