who believes in god (these days)

[Ellendra]

As far as I am concerned we are just the most developed/intelligent life forms on earth

There are days when statements like that frighten me.

[Rod in Japan]

I think you missed out the beginning of the sentence -

As far as I am concerned ...... any suggestion that there is something "out there" looking over me is ridiculous.

And as for the possibility of there being "something"? No, tried that. I spent my formative years involved in a reasonably strict but non-proselytising religion (non-Christian) and I've basically rejected the lot. As I said, it's a personal choice and I have no problems with what others believe. But in my opinion there is nothing before and after life - we exist, we die - end of story.

Graye, please don't take this personally, or as proselyting for anything but in reply:

I read the beginning of the sentence too. I'm not talking about religion with its 'reasonably strict rules'. I'm talking about probing the mystery of life.

I went to C of E schools and was invited to pray every day, but there was never any suggestion from the religious instructors that some sort of encounter with God might take place. I would like to have learned about Meister Eckhart instead of rote learning the Lord's Prayer. I used to have the same view as yours (and used to express it in the same way too), but then I realized that it was groundless and stultifying. Groundless, because logically, we simply can't know what you take for granted, and stultifying, because when you deny the other possibilities, you cut yourself off from some interesting and fulfilling experiences.

What was the non-Christian religion you belonged to, if I may ask?

[Graye]

These are going to be choppy sentences because my comma key seems to have stopped working since my computer threw a wobbler last night. My OH will be thrilled (he of the PhD in English) as he says I'm comma happy anyway. I haven't checked what else is "missing" but I suspect I will discover more as the day wears on. At least it will make me think hard when I write instead of babbling on.

I appreciate your suggestions Rod. I'm sure you are right but it's not the way for me. Don't think I haven't considered options carefully before coming to a conclusion. I would probably be a much more serene and relaxed individual if I could do as you say though. I envy your ability to be open to possibilities.

My family are/were Jewish. Almost certainly I remain one as I don't think you can "opt out" but I have long ago given up believing. I still like some of the concepts and traditions (as it is very much a cultural identity as well as a religious one it's hard not to) but as for the belief in God - no.

I genuinely have no problem with other beliefs. I have a dear friend who is a staunch Baptist. She tries to "save" me regularly - although after 12 years even she has begun to back off a little! I've even visited her church on several occasions. I love the singing and the fellowship but from a believing viewpoint - it leaves me cold.

[weatherwax]

Coming from a Jewish viewpoint I can completely sympathise, being Jewish apparently is not something you can just decide not to be, (according to certain members of my family, it is like being black or white, you cannot just decide not to be Jewish) I then consider myself a non practicing Jew, although I believe in G-d and yes still have enough Judaism left in me to not write the full name, funny that isn't how things get a hold of you and refuse to let go. Judaism was in my case stifling and maybe part of the reason why I have a problem with organised religion, but none of this stops me having faith and believing. But I will defend other peoples right to believe in their deity of choice or not believe at all, for me religion is a personal preference and each to his own I say!

[Annpan]

... I then consider myself a non practicing Jew, although I believe in G-d and yes still have enough Judaism left in me to not write the full name, funny that isn't how things get a hold of you and refuse to let go. ...

When I was 12 or so I visited a synagogue on an open day, I got most frustrated when the man doing the guided tour wouldn't tell me what the word on the stained glass window was. He clearly knew what it was but wouldn't tell me. Now I understand, but as a curious 12 year old I was very annoyed.


I was brought up RC, went to an RC primary school and a Jesuit secondary school, had persistent arguments with teachers about the churches view on homosexuality, contraception and the churches part in colonialism and the problems faced in third worlds. (The jesuits teach you how to think for yourself - a bit of a mistake when it comes to religion methinks)

Having lost my Dad when I was 4, I never had much faith. I had a horrendous childhood (not as bad as some) but from a very early age I questioned why God would do this to me.
On September 11, 2001 I lost all belief that I had in a greater power (ie God) Not just because of the people killed in the plane hijacks but because the western world seems to assume that God would protect them and not the Palestinians, the Afgans, etc, etc... and now 7 years on they are all still fighting in 'his name'... *

I still haven't decided what I do believe in but it is not theolistic, I like the idea of ancient religions - it makes sense to worship the Sun and the Moon and the Earth and Nature, it makes no sense to worship the all encompassing, all knowing, bogeyman.


All this said, each to their own, though sometimes I don't know if I should feel pity for those with blind faith, or be envious of them.... I suspect the latter.





* I know this has been going on for centuries in all parts of the world, but didn't really understand the politics before. I was old enough and saw it all unravelling this time.

[Rod in Japan]

Thanks for the reply Graye.

I envy your ability to be open to possibilities.

There's not much to be envious of I'm afraid. I'm still very ... repressed ... is the only word that seems to do justice to it.

I recently read "The Year of Living Biblically: One Man's Humble Quest to Follow the Bible as Literally as Possible" by AJ Jacobs which I found entertaining and enlightening. He discusses Jewish and Christian traditions, neither of which I feel invested in, but his willingness to try them, and the joy that he found in them are thought provoking.

[rockchick]

I just wrote one reply and am now rewriting it, it is so hard to find the right words. Essentially, I don't do religion or any form of god. I was brought up in a pretty much non-religious household, this did not stop me investigating, but things never made sense to me. I could be persuaded that the bible is at least a partially true story about someone trying to preach a better way to respect people and live as part of a society, but the god/son of god part never sat right. This culminated with a close friend telling me, in the nicest possible way, that I was going to hell. And this is what makes me mad about organised religion, it is so exclusive, 'believe what I believe or you're going to hell'. Is this not the basis of any gang culture, is it any wonder we have so many wars? I respect people personal beliefs as their way of living their life and I even respect their right to join a group of like minded people, but I really don't want it pushed on me or any other person in the world and I don't want it involved in politics.
Another aspect of religion that has recently started to upset me more, is people pushing their beliefs on children who have yet to learn their own mind and should instead be given the space to make their own decision about what is right for them. This is particularly difficult in this country as religion is practised in schools, my daughter has just started and is already coming home telling me she has to practise saying amen whilst holding her hands together. I think it should be taught as part of social history and geography as a subject for exploration and a way of understanding the world, not as something to be blindly accepted. It seems so much more important to teach respect than blind faith in something you don't understand.
The complicated thing about religion is that is very difficult to have a rational discussion because one persons logic tells says them there is nothing, whilst anothers says there is and it is very rare that you will change that opinion. Personally I prefer to concentrate on living my life and enjoying the world I am lucky enough to find myself in. My scientific(-ish) brain is completely satisfied with learning about my world and all of the amazing things that I share my space with.
Off soapbox. Hope I've not offended anyone, its not intended.

[Green Aura]

I fear this discussion is moving away from accepting to a little needling about non-beliefs.

"non-belief" of course is a misnomer - not sharing a belief in religion, organised or otherwise, is a belief system in its own right.

Suggestions that "non-believers" should open themselves up to other possibilities is insulting and rude. Most of us come to our conclusions after just as much enquiry, discussion and thought as anyone else and we're not just floundering in some vacuum.

If I sound rattled it is because I've observed, listened to and been subjected to similar conversations throughout most of my adult life.

People with religious beliefs just don't seem able to have the same tolerance for others beliefs (other religions or atheism).

I was writing this at the same time as rockchick, and in general I echo her reply.

Nuff said.

[shell]

while i dont shove christianty down anyones throat,i do bring my kids up christian,they go to church with me until they can make a decision for themselves,(and the church i belong to dosnt baptise till your old enough around 16 upwards to understand and have a want to be baptised),this for me will be the time i can leave them alone in the house without supervision or anyone calling the social services on me,as i believe i am on the right path isnt it understandable that i would want my kids to be also.l havnt made my choice lightly,many many circumstances and events have helped me to come to my faith,there was a time i was an atheist now i`m not,to finish i dont think this is the right place to get deeper and also i feel religion and politics should stay in their prespective sites to be discussed and challenged there,

[Graye]

Shell - I don't think anyone is challenging anyone else's beliefs here. It strikes me that almost across the board people have stated what their beliefs are and then said they have no problem with anyone else's way of thinking. It doesn't strike me that anyone who has contributed is in any way trying to suggest they know better or that their way has to be right.

I think in this day and age people in the Western world are quite happy to live side by side no matter what their neighbour believes in (that can apply to political beliefs too). The important part is that whatever these beliefs might be they do not interfere with or place restrictions on anyone else.

I've been very interested in the various views expressed so far and I don't think these sorts of discussions belong in a separate arena at all.

[mrsflibble]

I dont believe in challenging other's beliefs. so long as they're not hurting anyone, its up to them.

I have many religious friends, they have all come to realise that i dont need saving, i dont need their religions the same as they dont need me going on about the possibilities concerning polytheism or sun worship. #I also had many who fell by the wayside as they kept trying to turn me over to their side. one of thw worst for this is one of my exes.

as respect to my friend A, I used to wear a headscarf when we visited her family who are staunch muslims. As respect to my friend M, at her wedding I shall be wearing something to cover my head and something over my shoulders too while in her family's church. I understand that they are religious.

they understand that I dont follow an organised religion.

I became a member of the ULC years ago not because of the novelty factor like most people, but because of what they stand for. I truely believe in their principles. I actually took their advanced theology course after becoming ordained over the internet, and hoped to progress to a doctorate but never got that far. couldn't afford the course materials so unlike most poeple who have visited their site for a laugh, I did it in ernest!!! not a lot of people believe me !!! I've got universalism registered as my religion on facebook too. I was surprised they had an option for it!

[shell]

maybe i havn`t put my self over clearly ,but i didnt say i was challenged ,but to say people with beliefs dont seem to have the same tolerance is not true in my case or many in my church,there are many tolerant and intolerant people in this world and you dont have to look in a place of worship,i also said i dont feel its a place to go deeper which i would have to to explain why i believe although i have read why those who dont believe dont,to each their own and really i`m not making a judgement but maybe i`m reading this wrong but i feel there is some judgement in the above comments,and i felt i had to give an answer why i (force )my kids to church

[Green Aura]

If you go to church, of course you'll take your children. At some point they'll reach an age when they ask their own questions and make their own decisions. Hopefully whatever that is will be fine, with you and everyone else.

You don't have to divulge any deep seated reasons for your beliefs, whatever they are. You're not answerable to anyone here.

[barefootlinzi]

This is a very interesting discussion, they type I usually have at silly o'clock in the morning while rather squiffy!

My personal feelings are that there is no god. I have an affinity with nature and like annpan, like the old way of worshiping the sun moon ans earth. I love the moon, she governs my cycles and moods. I am not strictly pagan (i dont believe in any deitys at all) but much of its thinking fits me. But, despite not believing in god or any higher power, i have an affinity with the goddess figure. this has resulted from my empowering birth experience, and i see the goddess as a power within all women that we can draw on when we need it. i had a dream before i knew i was pregnant, but suspected it. a wise woman, she looked young and beautiful but was as old as time, came up to me, put her hands on my belly and told me i was pregnant.

sorry i have gone off topic a bit. I dont believe in a god, but believe in nature, taking care of our mother, the earth and that there is a power within us all that we can draw on when we need it. but i also believe that there is no right or wrong religion, that we all must seek the truth inside ourselves and believe what we want to believe. The one thing i cannot abide is people trying to force their beliefs on others, or people thinking that their beliefe are superior to others. i think this results in a lot of conflict that is around in the world today.

I like the wiccan rede; if it harms none, do what you will.

[Birdie Wife]

*waves hand* me too!

There's a lot I don't understand about the way God goes about his business here on eath but I have faith that it is all working out for the best. And I think that faith does not result from how blind you are, how much or little you understand, or how intelligent you are - people from all walks of life and all different experiences can and do still have faith - it is very inclusive in that way.

Also, i think if there wasn't any religion on earth, people would still find exceuses to do bad things to each other. That's not the fault of religion, it's the fault of the people who use it as an excuse to go to war.