I want a dog!

[trinder]

I will answer your post as fully as I can when I get back but for the moment. Your bit about liking her crate is a bit like my horsey people who say if he doesn't like his stable why is he waiting at the gate?
I willl be back

[scotsmart]

Im sure you will can i also add at this point that my ex partner previously had horses both stabled and not whilst i can see your comparison i dont quite get the relevance there are times when ALL animals absolutely MUST be contained in as much as its not safe to let a Parrot roam out it cage 24/7 neither is it with a snake or for that matter a cow or pig all at certain times for as many reasons must for both their and our safety be contained so i am looking forward to this reasoning

[demi]

obviously if the animal was showing signs of distress about being in the cage then you would not force the matter.
the cage is supposed to be a safe bed for the dog to sleep in and feel secure.
its not to be used as a form of punnishment or as a place to put the dog when you cant be bothered with it.
if the dog doesnt like the cage then you shouldnt use it.

we have never needed to use a cage for our dog because she was outside most of the time when she was a pup as it was during the summer. by the time winter came she was a bit older and by this time had become actstomed to toileting outside so when we started to bring her inside to sleep at night she was already toilet trained and didnt need a cage. she just sleeps in the hall or in the livingroom with the fire if its cold. she still has her bed in the shed in the garden too which she sleeps in during the day when shes in the garden.

[scotsmart]

Demi
That in fairness amounts to the same thing, in that a bed in a shed is surely equal to a bed in a cage only wish we had a summertime when we had the weather to allow ours free rein in the garden i have to say that in our previous property we had a cat door which both cat and dog used to access the garden via? so essentually had daily run of such when she felt like it, although she to this day goes absolutely everywhere with us (hence the need for a second cage in our car!)
I really thing in all honesty were both doing much the samething other than ours sleeps in here cage at the side of our bed every night safe, warm and sound for on average an eight hour night and since being a few months old has always done so, as i clearly state like yours she has the freedom to come out of her cage if she wishes (in point of fact if i watch tv in bed she will not go to her bed until the room is in darkness)

[demi]

its sort of the same thing, then again sort of not. as she is never locked in the shed, the door is allways open for her to go in and out as she pleases and she has full run of the garden.
when we got her at first she was locked in the kitchen at night for the first few weeks. but she peed on the floor a few times which is why we moved her bed out to the shed.

[trinder]

Thanks for bearing with me . I will go through this quickly but I think you are going to have to check back a fair bit when you try to make sense of my garbled response.
There are 4 part to Positive and negative reinforcement . It goes without saying that positive is the ADDITION of something nice (+R)(a stimulation) and negative is the REMOVAL of something not nice (-R) still (a stimulation)
We need to move into construct theory a bit . If things happen to your dog randomly they are not engaged in any learning it does not make sense. So if I chuck a treat on the floor and my dog didn't see me he doesn't associate finding it with anything. He just thinks he happened upon some random treat. So it was ineffective therefore negative there was no reinforcement of anything . No learning took place at all. Similarly if I come home and shout at the dog for ripping something up. this too is negative (punishment) because no learning took place. Many people say their dog looks guilty well if you just watch him interact with another dog who is acting aggressively - S/he is simply saying " I am no threat to you" this is not sorry. It is a simple placatory tool. All that he actually knows is some days you come home in a Foul mood.
So the cage is not a bad place but it is a restraint, however you care to view it.
I restrain my dog a thousand times a day. I shut doors and I put her on a lead. I e. I limit what she can do. Similarly I restrain my horses and ponies by putting up electric fencing (or whatever) it is still a restraint. MKG said he was not happy with the use of a cage . Fine everyone is entitled to choose acceptable and unacceptable practices.
My only angle is understanding. We just need to be singing from the same song sheet.
As I recall the initial post was somewhat vague. In fact the poster never said anything about previous ownership or experience so many of us kinda assumed that there was none but we don't know that it just did not say.
There are stack of competition dogs out there that are trained purely by positive re enforcement , though I suspect MKG is not one of them. He may not like the idea of training with a cage but I bet he would agree he is not +(R) pure.

[MKG]

Me? Pure as the driven snow, I assure you. The only times I ever sin are days with a Y in them.

Mike

[scotsmart]

I give in were going round in circles
And by the way im only good on days with a d in

[MKG]

For the record, I didn't imply that cage-users were cruel monsters - I just said the use of a cage wouldn't be my choice. The mere fact that this discussion is going on would indicate to me that everyone taking part has the best interests of their dogs at heart - as it should be. The idea of caging doesn't suit my mental make-up - it's as simple as that.

Anyway - enjoy your dogs and make sure your dogs enjoy you is my mantra. The poodle agrees. Merry christmas to dog-lovers and dogs everywhere

Mike

[scotsmart]

Ditto
I simply see no productive use from continuing this convo much farther weve all said our peace, emparted our views, and shared our knowledge in the hope that the OP will take heed of our combined advice....

Merry Chrimbo and peace to all men, women, dogs & horses