Oh no not a dirty carrot

[Stonehead]

There's a fundamental flaw with view that all land can be converted to arable crops anyway. Not all farmland is created equal and there's a lot that can't be used for cereal and vegetable crops, especially on a large scale. On top of that, a lot of the more marginal land would not be as viable without the input of animal manures.

In our case, we'd not have been able to restore the nutrients as quickly or efficiently to our croft land without animal manures. Soil testing showed the soil was very poor and depleted when we took the croft on four years ago.

Now, people are amazed by the richness of the soil and the worm count (always a good indicator). That's down to pig and chicken manure.

[Welsh Girls Allotment]

I learnt in geography lessons in school that most Egyptian potatoes are fertilised with human sewage, from the workers in the field down to full scale spraying of the stuff on the land !

[Cassiepod]

I don't mean to be offensive but humans are animals too so human fertiliser should also be a no-no for vegans... Or is it related to consent?... I don't remember the last time I was asked for my poo

And anyway you can't really gurantee that a human is not tainted with chemicals therefore human manure couldn't be considered organic either... unless you only took it from people who had also been fed on organic food, in an organic house for X number of years....

Am I thinking about this too much

[QuakerBear]

I think the problem with human poo as fertilizer is that, if you're eating the veg, fertalizing it, eating it, re-fertilizing and so on, parasites and other nasties will become more concentrated. I don't know, maybe you could avoid this by througherly washing it.

Can you imagine taking your business plan to the bank manager. Hello, Mr. Suit, I'd like to sell my poo.

[Annpan]

There was an article in Living Earth (the soil association magazine) about the only organic farm in Britain that uses just green manure. I can't find the mag now, or anything on their web-site, typical.

Anyway, this jist was that this farmer has been struggling to prove that you can make a profit without the use of animal by-products, and he manages on green manure... mostly mustard.

I'll have another look for the article, so I can quote it.

Sounds like madness to me though, why not use animal manure where it is available?
It is a by product of the meat and dairy industy, but it is not cruel in itself, especially if the animals are well cared for (ie. under organic standards)

[hamster]

Can you imagine taking your business plan to the bank manager. Hello, Mr. Suit, I'd like to sell my poo.

Or, 'Hello, Mr Suit, I'd like to put people in an organic house, feed them only organic food, then collect poo from them, wash it and sell it.'!!!

[ina]

Has anyone else heard about this kind of abuse of the label organic?

There are black sheep in any system; yes, I'm sure there are a few people who go out in the night and try to abuse the system - they don't have a good chance of getting away with it, not in most countries, anyway, as the controls "certified" organic farmers undergo are very strict.

On the other hand: it depends on what you call "chemical". Everything is a chemical, when you look at it that way; we are all made up of chemical elements. And yes, there are sometimes derogations, in emergencies, to use "natural" chemicals, like copper based sprays for blight in tatties or vine growing, or plant extract based products for other problems - only with special permission from the certifying body; these exceptions are being phased out, as new disease resistant varieties are being bred and brought on the market. (I have the full Soil Association standards here if anybody needs to know particulars... It's a massive folder!)

Sounds like madness to me though, why not use animal manure where it is available?
It is a by product of the meat and dairy industy, but it is not cruel in itself, especially if the animals are well cared for (ie. under organic standards)

I suppose if you are a vegan, you are against the keeping of livestock full stop - so consequently you have to be against the use of any livestock product - even if it's their muck! But I fully agree with you, Ann...

Human poo is used in farming (as sewage sludge), but not without problems. Research currently carried out is hinting at all sorts of problems... (Male fertility, breast cancer...) No, I can't give you end results yet - it's still ongoing, but if anybody is interested I could try and find some interim reports. Organic farming does not allow the use of sewage sludge (at least not in the UK - don't know about other countries).

[frozenthunderbolt]

Human poo used in farming causing male fertility problems and breast cancer in females?
I think (without any particular research to back me up) that this would be largely due to one of two things if it is true:

1. the chemicals that get flushed down most toilets and that are used in the treatement of sludge may be toxic or carcinogenic and are preasent in sufficient (even if at "safe" levels) to cause problems OR

2. Because humans are high level consumers in the trophic system, toxins and chemicals get concentrated in our systems. A prime example being people who eat a lot of meat that is grown with hormones that may be concentrated in human waste (as well as contributing to the demionishing age of the onset of puberty in the west), with such waste used as fertiliser could hormones from food be geting taken up and concentrated ever faster in people causing the said health problems.

Comercial treatment of sewage sludge should kill the vastest number of nasties in it so that is little problem (IMHO) and the same can be done on a small scale with a high temprature composting toilet:
GOOGLE "HUMANURE HANDBOOK" and download for FREE to answer many questions.

I would postulate that the sewage sludge (once appropriately treated to kill pathogens and parasites) from people who eat primarily home grown food, meat in particular, could be, and should be used as the best example of energy re-use, good earth husbandry and recycling that there is.

[Annpan]

can I add a third possibility...

3. The female contraceptive pill is causing our sewage to be loaded to the limit with oesreogen (sp?) I have read about this causeing a severe problem with fish reproduction.

[the.fee.fairy]

I've read that a few times about the pill.

Gives me another reason not to take it...

[Chickenlady]

I do love thread drift!

I wonder how our landscape would change if no livestock was kept? No more rolling hay meadows I would guess, as no hay would be needed to feed the animals (although I suppose we don't have that many of those any more anyway!).

I suppose the way our countryside looks now is a direct result of centuries of farming practices. Even though intensive agriculture has caused a lot of damage to the natural environment, there are still areas where you can see a tapestry of fields, woods and hedgerows that only look like that because we have kept livestock as well as growing crops etc.

I may be completely wrong about this, and I am certainly no landscape historian, but I can't help thinking that our rural landscape might somehow be the poorer for not keeping livestock.

Jane

[QuakerBear]

I may be completely wrong about this, and I am certainly no landscape historian, but I can't help thinking that our rural landscape might somehow be the poorer for not keeping livestock.

Jane

You're quite right. One of the main factors in shaping the landscape in the UK is sheep, and they've been at it for thousands of years. There are many habitats, such as heath, which are a result of sheep grazing. Remove the animals and the landscape with change and follow a very different course of development.

[Helsbells]

But I like meant

[ina]

You are all quite right about why sewage sludge contains stuff that's bad for you... Hormones and chemicals are a major problem; parasites aren't.

A couple of articles that might interest you:

On the change in behaviour of male sheep

http://www.robedwards.com/2004/11/alert_as_gender.html


On the influence on mammary tissue in sheep

http://www.sundayherald.com/news/herald ... levels.php

[baldowrie]

got another little gem for you form my children teacher...the wisdom of this is brilliant

There is such a thing a being too healthy and junk food is part of balanced diet and you should eat it!