Angry mobs...

[Stonehead]

I really can't see a time when people will be literally forced into inappropriate jobs against medical advice.

It happens already. I've known several people in the past 10-15 years who were genuinely disabled, told to take jobs or lose benefits, taken the job and then not been able to do it. They've then been sacked, with further implications for their benefits.

One lady who worked for me had limited arm and wrist mobility, plus pain. The job involved a lot of typing. Doh! Okay, she was off benefits for a time and the business got payments to take her on, but she couldn't do about 70% of the actual job. That was okay while the government was covering a large chunk of her pay, but it meant she couldn't be kept on after that ran out.

I also know of employers who have taken on disabled people on the basis of the government providing grants to modify the work environment. The money then hasn't come through or taken too long to come through, so the person either leaves or is reluctantly sacked as the job is too much for them without the changes to their working environment.

As a manager I've had to spec desks, chairs, computers, telephones, access, etc for people with certain disabilities and they are very, very expensive. If you take a disabled person on, then they need the appropriate facilities and equipment from their first day in the job—not in six to 12 months time. Without those changes, they are unable to do the job or, worse still, it exacerbates their disabilities.

And before someone says businesses should pick up the cost, big companies may be prepared to take the risk of spending, say, £8,000 on modifying the workplace but small businesses can't afford that. And many businesses would say why spend the money when it's cheaper to employ someone without disabilities? (Personally, I've found disabled people tend to make excellent long-term employees as they're not constantly looking to move on. If they find a good employer that makes an effort, they tend to stay with them, and that amply justifies the investment.)

The government has a lot of schemes and advisors that supposedly help businesses employ disabled people, but it's bureaucratic, slow and unresponsive. And to be quite frank, a fair number of the advisors haven't a clue about the needs of either the disabled or businesses.

[Stonehead]

I think work is a real benefit to people who have depression, I have seen it work... it can give people a reason to get up in the morning, a team to belong to, and a social outlet for people who can feel trapped in their homes.

Rot. I was signed off with clinical depression after 20 years of doing 70-80 hour weeks in deadline driven, high pressure jobs that culminated in a post where I was the buffer between a bully and the team. I had a very high profile, an excellent reputation as a troubleshooter and got results time after time. I did ground-breaking work, launched new products, developed new technologies, and "go things done". But when I went tits up from doing it so hard and for so long, work was the last thing I needed.

In fact, much of the cost to business of depression comes not from absentism but from of what's called "presenteeism".

That's when people with clinical depression show up for work but are unable to function at anywhere near full capacity. They fail to return phone calls, make confused phone calls, turn in poor quality work, miss deadlines altogether, fail to follow up new business leads, can't make decisions, have difficulty getting along with co-workers, withdraw from the social environment at work, and so on.

Work is not the answer for depression.

[Green Aura]

I've read this thread with interest at all the differing views, so I thought I'd chuck in my two-pennerth.

I believe in everyone's right/responsibility to work and I would certainly count raising kids (at least for a few years as work). I also believe strongly that there is a type of work for everyone and that this may change over time. As an example, road-sweeping really isn't my thing but I remember a folksinger from the 70's who loved precisely that job - she found loads of inspiration for her songs. Not everyone wants a high-pressured job or very repetitive work, but others would thrive in those positions.

It is my observation that to provide for you and yours is a fairly basic human drive, and people generally get a great deal of their feelings of self-worth from their work. Lack of this contributes greatly to depressive type illnesses. There are not many people, no matter how disabled, who could not do some sort of work and would not derive some benefit from it. I think that this is borne out by the people on benefits who are willing to work "cash in hand" to meet their needs. It seems such a shame that in our current society they couldn't get a decent wage for it.

One of the problems with this is that many people who have been out of work/ never worked get trapped in this notion that "only" minimum wage jobs are open to them and this view seems to be echoed by the job centres who only seem to offer what many of us would consider boring or menial jobs. I can't condone, but don't blame, anyone for continuing to claim if they'll get more money on JSA or other benefit than working one of these jobs.

Another problem is that many of these Vicky Pollard type individuals many of you have described are often second or even third generation claimants, see their "job on the side" as not really work and so have no concept of having a job or career that could enrich their lives as well as their pockets. The problem, when caught in a poverty trap, is to see the way out as a threat not an opportunity.

It seems to me that most of us on this board are highly talented people, in one way or another. If you've got a little time to find out what you can do/really want to do spend it wisely, while still getting benefits, so that if they're withdrawn you've got a contingency plan. Even this small step will help to raise your mood and you may find the seeds of a career growing out it.

[Annpan]

I think work is a real benefit to people who have depression, I have seen it work... it can give people a reason to get up in the morning, a team to belong to, and a social outlet for people who can feel trapped in their homes.

Rot. I was signed off with clinical depression after 20 years of doing 70-80 hour weeks in deadline driven, high pressure jobs that culminated in a post where I was the buffer between a bully and the team. I had a very high profile, an excellent reputation as a troubleshooter and got results time after time. I did ground-breaking work, launched new products, developed new technologies, and "go things done". But when I went tits up from doing it so hard and for so long, work was the last thing I needed.

In fact, much of the cost to business of depression comes not from absentism but from of what's called "presenteeism".

That's when people with clinical depression show up for work but are unable to function at anywhere near full capacity. They fail to return phone calls, make confused phone calls, turn in poor quality work, miss deadlines altogether, fail to follow up new business leads, can't make decisions, have difficulty getting along with co-workers, withdraw from the social environment at work, and so on.

Work is not the answer for depression.

I apologise, I apear to have omited the word some
Work is a real benefit to some people who suffer depression.

2 of the cases I know for a fact it worked...
When post natal depression lasted 14 years, compounded with a controlling husband and a lonely life behind the doors of her own home with no independence, culminating in extensive use of both alcohol and anti-depressants, even after getting shot of the husband. She is now part of the real world and working full-time, and thriving. (single mum of 3, youngest was 8 when she went back to work)

Single Mum after being employed for 5 years on temporary contracts for the same business, the contracts stopped. Mild depression and stress brought on illness after illness with several major operations eventually brought on full on clinical depression. 5 years on anti depressants when she finally started working full-time, which helped confidence and health no end. - kids had left home by the time she went back to work, but she might have served as a better example had she gone back to work earlier.

So no, it isn't always the answer, but it can help.

[DominicJ]

I believe in everyone's right/responsibility to work and I would certainly count raising kids (at least for a few years as work).

Trying to be nice but, you pay them then.

One of the problems with this is that many people who have been out of work/ never worked get trapped in this notion that "only" minimum wage jobs are open to them and this view seems to be echoed by the job centres who only seem to offer what many of us would consider boring or menial jobs.

But its true. someone who has never worked IS only worth minimum wage, if that. Most jobs are boring and menial, thats why they're jobs, if it was exciting and enjoyable, you pay someone to do it.
If I'm looking to recruit for a position, and I have two candidates, one has held down a steady job as a cleaner, the other has never worked, I know candidate A has at least turned up on a regular basis, I know nothing about B.
I COULD interview B anyway and he might be brilliant, or I could just hire A and not have any extra workload.

I can't condone, but don't blame, anyone for continuing to claim if they'll get more money on JSA or other benefit than working one of these jobs.

Neither can I, which is why my point is remove them. As is, we activly pay people not to work and stay poor, its madness.

They are exceptions, but governments can not do exceptional, if it cant be done via tick sheet and pigeon hole, its beyond government.